river's limits
POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
VIEWED: 20429
PAGE 4 of 7
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
As a side-note, if it's the age gap bothering folks, well, there's a long tradition of older man and younger woman. Starts with Hesiod, Ancient Greece; he reckoned that a man in his early thirties was established, and wealthy enough to support a wife. The said wife should be younger, so that there was time for a family. And there's an age gap (for pretty much those reasons) in all the significant 'romance' novels - Bronte, Austen etc. Just a thought.
Of course, if it's the idea that a seventeen year old might be having feelings of a sexual nature that bothers you, then sorry. They cut her amygdala, not her libido. And, well, Mal. Hello, do you have eyes?
Not trying to speak for Platonist here, just giving my two cents.
I don't think it's the idea of "a seventeen year old" having sexual feelings that bothers people, it's the idea of this particular seventeen year old having them, and in particular for this person. It's a question of characterisation, both of River, of Mal and of their relationship as portrayed on the show and in the movie.
No need to insinuate anything other than that.
For the record, I think it's entirely possible for a girl (or a boy) who have been traumatized in the way River has to have either suppressed sexual feelings or have them without a direct connection to sexual desire for a particular person. In fact, I think it's more likely. Being sexually fearless and curious and self-confident and healthy is generally not the mark of the traumatized teenager, whether their trauma was sexual or not.
As for the long tradition of older men and younger women, that has - yes - a very long tradition based in biology and many social and economic reasons. But since marriage was generally not about love for the longest time, ever, this has little bearing on what we consider a healthy romantic relationship between two equals. Traditions are not generally what we should call on when we look for things labeled "good for women with feminist leanings".
Yes, there are age gaps in many of the "classic" romance novels, too, but even in those times women were not really considered equals to men the way River can and should expect to develop if life decides to treat her kindly for once, so... not really a good comparison, either. I'm sure there are examples of true love between a barely legal teen and her grumpy thirty-something authority figure, but I'm fairly certain they started out on a healthy basis of equality and mental health without minglings of paternal/filial feelings in there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I agree that "Captain Daddy" is wrong and creepifying, but I DO think that River very much considers Mal a father figure.
I totally agree with River considering Mal a father figure (and to Mal simply being one to her). It's just that "Captain Daddy" really sends shivers down my spine! (that's 'spine', Jayne, not 'pine'). May just be the male mind, but it somehow sounds incredibly incestuous to me: really icky! 'Special Hell' kinda wrong.
Quote:
River having a crush on Mal is something I see as being very contradictory to their canon interactions, and only someone very skilled could pull it off, especially counting in Mal's reaction to it, which - I am 100% certain - would be far from anything like "Oooh, nubile war goddess in love with me, yay, lemme introduce her to the magic of lurve after a brief alibi period of struggling with my vague moral obligations against the hotness of River until she finally convinces me that no one else can understand me like she does, because she has overcome things done to her by the Alliance - just like me!"
LOL. Had a kinda poetry to it. You would make a fine Judge, btw: no perp would get by you with their 'excuses'. :)
Having said that, I can see the crush, but ONLY in terms of "Hero Worship". The two things may appear very similar, but a crush is nearly always sexual in nature, whereas hero worship is like a crush, but minus the obligatory physical attraction. I can readily see the latter: a very deep feeling of admiration and (good) pride towards Mal, like she's feeling for Simon. And such a 'crush' would be entirely in line with canon, as Mal is, after all, also a person who rescues and protects her. But beyond that, not so much.
Quote:
Mal would have to sink to a place far, far, far beyond the line of hopeless in order to respond to the crush of a girl he treats as paternally as he does her on the show.
He never would. Ain't gonna happen.
P.S. And @ SPACEANJL: Yes, Mal has eyes. But to quote the Little Prince: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly." And Mal's is in the right place.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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yes,romanticized, me bad
A stepping stone romantic crush, yes. I can see that. A full blown sexual relationship with Mal, please, he can't even express his deep feelings for Inara beyond "good answer". He would be horrified!
And River seducing Mal is nasty and could only end in a muddled disaster. I can’t see Mal going through with that and ever feeling good about it. He already carries the guilt of the world. It’s definitely out of character for our handsome hero.
And, women married young when they were still considered property like goats and cows.
Now days and hopefully in the future there are other options and choices for women, which I believe Mal may have been fighting for.
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Sorry, I think I'm just poking a stick through the bars here.
The whole point is, in the grand tradition of Joss, to take a stereotype, a cultural more, a given state, and then to mess with it.
I in no way advocate any kind of inequality. I was merely stating an observation. The Austen vibe of the 'verse has been noted elsewhere, that's not my doing.
We'll agree to differ. The way I see the characters will always differ from the way anyone else sees them, because of who and what I am, compared to the life experiences etc of anyone else informing their views.
But I'd hate to think I was being pigeon-holed as a 'shipper - I like to write character-based storylines, with a whole range of action, drama, romance, comedy and suspense. And I would hope that my exploration of one possible facet of one character doesn't mean that everything else I write, about the way a whole 'Verse may have developed, gets binned out of hand.
Edit: I'm with you on the Mal flailing in a panic bit. *unpleasant snigger* And looking back on what I've written - it's all very chaste and innocent. So I don't see what's worrying people.
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Bailing for the evening, now. So not ignoring folks. If anyone really wants to get into a go-round about things, pm me. I like a good wrangle, and hopefully, I don't come over so demented in time. 
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I don't think it's the idea of "a seventeen year old" having sexual feelings that bothers people, it's the idea of this particular seventeen year old having them, and in particular for this person. It's a question of characterisation, both of River, of Mal and of their relationship as portrayed on the show and in the movie.
Right on!
Your average seventeen year old has sex, I'm fair certain. But THIS one, with Mal no less, ack!
I guess what bothers me about it, on such a profound level, is that it goes against the entire Firefly grain in all unseemly manner. Everything, in the narrow sense, revolves around saving River; and, in the broader sense, about folks who do for each other and ain't always looking for the advantage.., Or look to take advantage. Set against a juxtapositioned Alliance, Serenity and crew, in a manner of speaking, are their own little flying micro-kosmos, Man's last best hope for, erm, hope. So, if Mal uses whatever rationale to take avantage of River, sexually, not only will he soon enough find himself in the company of people who talk at the theatre, but he would, in essence, also undercut the whole Firefly premisse -- betray it even, you might say. He would become just another Saffron, playing everyone else.
I know of the preponderance in fanfic to do exactly that: find excuses for members of the crew to have sex with River. But I'm thinking you'll kill Mal in the process, and Firefly as a whole -- and not necessarily in that particular order.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Having said that, I can see the crush, but ONLY in terms of "Hero Worship". The two things may appear very similar, but a crush is nearly always sexual in nature, whereas hero worship is like a crush, but minus the obligatory physical attraction. I can readily see the latter: a very deep feeling of admiration and (good) pride towards Mal, like she's feeling for Simon. And such a 'crush' would be entirely in line with canon, as Mal is, after all, also a person who rescues and protects her. But beyond that, not so much.
I agree absolutely! I can see that happening, the way you describe that. It can also fit in with Mal's being a father figure to her, since alot of happy, healthy kids with good dads worship them.
"Captain Daddy" sounds so very, very wrong, though, on lots of levels. *shudder*
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#\/#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#
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98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
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Fun thread. Although - haven't we been over all this before? 
Captain Daddy: 
Albatross: cute, but soooo overused. Ranks right up there with Simon=boob.
Quote:I'm just curious SpaceAnjl - are people specifically giving you crap for your River? Like in comments and PMs? I mean, I don't think of your fic as River/Mal, and I'm little surprised that you're taking all this to be aimed at you.
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I'm rather insulted by the idea that because I write River with a crush on Mal, which I would consider a normal, healthy response to the man, I'm going to write space-porn.
Hmm... that said, I'm going out on a dangerous limb because I just have to reply to what you're saying. Just because you think something is a normal reaction, doesn't mean it's universal. I'm just saying, the way to avoid Mary Sue criticisms is to write characters who *don't* react the way you would. Get it? If they all react like you, it becomes a fic about you, not them.
I'm going to burn in hell. Really, I am.
Let me make this peace offering Spaceanjl - I'm writing River with a crush on Mal, too. A crush with an blatant sexual side, though in a naive romanticized way as befits a sheltered virginal teenager like River. I take no offense from this thread, so I think you don't need to either (uh - except what I just said there above.
) In fact, I completely agree with AR and Platonist and Asarian. I don't think they are arguing against the thing that you and I are writing. Unless I'm missing something... ?
Quote:This is what I mean - you're going kind of strawman argument here, making me think you're not understanding what folks are saying. No one's saying River doesn't have sexual feelings. No one's saying she can't have a crush of sorts. Even on Mal.
Of course, if it's the idea that a seventeen year old might be having feelings of a sexual nature that bothers you, then sorry. They cut her amygdala, not her libido.
The criticism is rather pointedly aimed at those writers who take her, in one short step, from traumatized, naive, damaged, barely-more-than-a-girl to Mal/Jayne's emotional equal and full time wife and mother etc etc etc. That has nothing to do with the situation I'm writing, or - from what you've said here - the situation you're writing.
Quote:Huh. Your fic's not under my skin. If you're feeling persecuted, which obviously you are, that's a shame. But I don't think anyone here intends it.
Interestingly, people who write an actual physical relationship with these two don't seem to get the same kind of stick. Guess I'm writing something with a little bit of the real to it, if it's getting under folk's skin...
AR - lovely replies to the age question and the sexual River question. And Platonist - excellent call on Mal's side of things. A Mal who'd react to a River crush has little in common with the Mal from the series.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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>And is there a way to search for a specific author's work in the Blue Sun Room? Just because I don't really have a lot of patience for wading though Rayne and other nasty crap like that, but I like to read good fanfic.
God I wish! You can go to 'my firefly' and type in the author's name at the end where you see yours.
>She's still going to have the same problems- they weren't mysterously "cured" by Miranda. It's just that she has a better chance of being able to absorb all the data that's coming into her, that she might be able to make it make sense. It's not the same thing as her "insanity" going away.
Agreed. Her brain has still been cut into. That hasn't changed. She might better be able to control herself, but she'll still be good old non-sequiter River.
I'm playing catchup and have a lot to read, but this is just the first post I saw that I wanted to comment on:)
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Since we are on the topic of River's portrayal in fanfic, post Miranda, does anyone have any favorites to share?
My personal fav is Leiasky's "Broken Wings", where River requests and obtains refinement of her martial arts training, from the Guild, and ultimately gains control of her skills and helps the Browncoats.
Aww, you're sweet! Mal4Prez kicked my ass when beta'ing that story, so if you liked it, you have her to thank:)
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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