river's limits

POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
VIEWED: 20429
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SPACEANJL

Friday, February 8, 2008 1:48 PM

Just jumping in at the end here. It worries me that i actually found River fairly easy to write, given my understanding of her character.

Way back when, I had her decide how to use what has been done to her. She is a weapon and always will be, but she is learning how to control it, instead of it controlling her.

Becoming a pilot would work for her character - after all, it's dancing the biggest and best dance of all, all those planets in constant motion.

And I know how much folks hate it, but...seventeen and female. She's going to notice men. (Though I don't think large, unshaven thugs figure too strongly - I see her as preferring something cleaner and prettier. And possibly with tighter pants.)

Basically, smart and dangerous, but still with a core of sweetness. And she isn't a child any more.

PLATONIST

Saturday, February 9, 2008 6:38 AM

Oh, no doubt she'll notice men, I just don't think she will be defined or "fixed" by a romantic relationship in a Whedon verse.

And let’s be realistic, at her age, first love scenarios usually end with a whole lotta hurt and disillusionment. They don't last in the real world and they certainly wouldn't last in a Whedon verse.

I don't think Joss would have gone there for a long time, until she was fairly in control and healed. Captain Daddy's pants will be pretty saggy by that time.

WYTCHCROFT

Saturday, February 9, 2008 10:25 AM

also? still a brat.

SPACEANJL

Saturday, February 9, 2008 12:47 PM

Okay, first off - 'Captain Daddy'? That is so damn creepy, I can't tell you. It might be appropriate for an under-10, but not a late teen.

If you think of Simon's rather lame attempts at humour to Kaylee (all the other women he knows are either married or related) the reverse would be true for River. Mal is an obvious crush.

In fact, I can see more problems arising out of the fact that as she finds herself more in control, she's going to get increasingly pissed with folks treating her as a damaged little girl. (Even if she still is.)

Every sibling thinks that their younger sib is a brat. Goes with the territory. Every younger sib thinks their older sib is a controlling bossy bore.

The whole point of the FF 'verse is that we want to think of that little ship still flying. We don't want any ending, happy or otherwise. (Though I say, go with the happy. The whole angst thing - been there, done that, got blood on the t-shirt.)

ASARIAN

Saturday, February 9, 2008 2:24 PM

The whole "Captain Daddy" phrase is sooo creepifying! Here's some more about it, for the newcomers:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=25221

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PLATONIST

Saturday, February 9, 2008 5:26 PM

Well, it is CREEPY, but she DOES refer to Mal as Daddy in Safe.

And he does refer to her as Lil Albatross, at the end of the movie.

You can't change or disavow canon because it doesn't fit with your romanticized version of these characters. And you can't insist that River has a crush on Mal because you wish it so anymore than you can make her all better and pretend that no one screwed with the poor girl's brain. There are no canon bases for it; it truly belongs in Fan fiction.

River becomes lucid in the movie only when SHE embraces what she has become, a weapon (my turn). Before that, it’s Simon giving her Meds and Alliance triggers. River’s final lucidly scene and Mal’s arc, are not based on finding true love with each other in the darkness of space (vomit), but by their own accord, they find strength within themselves to keep their inner conflict at bay and persevere (the storm’s getting worse…we’ll get through it).

And unfortunately, angst, as painful as it may be, is a part of life, as much as joy is, as tragedy and comedy are closely related.

ASARIAN

Saturday, February 9, 2008 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

Well, it is CREEPY, but she DOES refer to Mal as Daddy in Safe.

And he does refer to her as Lil Albatross, at the end of the movie.

To quote PhoenixRose in the other thread I mentioned:

In "Safe" River says to Simon that "Daddy will come and take us home" and in the comentary Joss said that the episode kind of established Mal as a father figure and Serenity as home. Perhaps this is where the idea of 'Captain Daddy' comes from.

Correct. And now hear Mal4prez:

I think River using the "daddy" word in Safe is in some way a reference to Mal, but I absolutely don't think it's literal. It's an expression of a feeling, namely her realization that she's with people she really can depend on, people who will come for her. So it's meant more to refer back to the Daddy who didn't save her, and how she won't feel that way again.

So, yes, Mal is a replacement for her failure of a father, but I totally don't think she'd EVER call Mal Captain Daddy, or even Daddy. She's not a child! Especially since her mental state improves over the course of the BDS and she's eventually able to express herself better.

Mal4prez nailed it 'fore I could say: "You nailed it, lady!" :)

Oh, and "Lil' Albatross" is not creepifying at all; it's kind of an inside joke. 'Captain Daddy', however, is really wrong on so many levels!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PLATONIST

Saturday, February 9, 2008 6:13 PM

Let's be frank, what's really creepy is a Mal and River pairing with the prior knowledge of "Daddy" and "Lil Albatross" (an innocent endearment).

The crush thing even starts me running to wash out my brain... looking for some ice, salt and tequila, now.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, February 9, 2008 6:13 PM

I agree that "Captain Daddy" is wrong and creepifying, but I DO think that River very much considers Mal a father figure.

The phrase in "Safe" is just too obvious to be considered too abstract metaphor for safety, since there are very real father issues at hand. "Daddy" wouldn't be used as a loose metaphor if the word itself already has a clear reference in the episode, so I think it's a deliberate shift of the actual role from the biological father to Mal, the "father" of the crew.

River having a crush on Mal is something I see as being very contradictory to their canon interactions, and only someone very skilled could pull it off, especially counting in Mal's reaction to it, which - I am 100% certain - would be far from anything like "Oooh, nubile war goddess in love with me, yay, lemme introduce her to the magic of lurve after a brief alibi period of struggling with my vague moral obligations against the hotness of River until she finally convinces me that no one else can understand me like she does, because she has overcome things done to her by the Alliance - just like me!"

I mean, seriously.

Mal would have to sink to a place far, far, far beyond the line of hopeless in order to respond to the crush of a girl he treats as paternally as he does her on the show.

I can see a River crush, but definitely not for romantic reasons. For many very wrong reasons, possibly. And not lasting into a time when she's actually adult and better enough to be ready for an actual relationship between equals.

SPACEANJL

Saturday, February 9, 2008 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

Well, it is CREEPY, but she DOES refer to Mal as Daddy in Safe.

You can't change or disavow canon because it doesn't fit with your Romanized version of these characters. And you can't insist that River has a crush on Mal because you wish it so anymore than you can make her all better and pretend that no one screwed with the poor girl's brain.

River becomes lucid in the movie only when SHE embraces what she has become, a weapon (my turn). {} River’s final lucidly scene and Mal’s arc, are not based on finding true love with each other in the darkness of space (vomit), but by their own accord, they find strength within themselves to keep their inner conflict at bay and persevere

Do you mean 'romanticized'?

This seems to cause a much greater hooey than the Rayne stuff, which really makes me heave. Look, I use the series, the film and the OVC's as my sources for the characters, but I extrapolate from that. And yes, I use the idea that River's acceptance of part of herself as weapon is a liberating factor for her.

But I can also see a possible relationship forming between River and Mal. I'm taking flak for it, but I'm entitled to an opinion. 'Relationship' covers a lot of ground. I'm rather insulted by the idea that because I write River with a crush on Mal, which I would consider a normal, healthy response to the man, I'm going to write space-porn. (Well, I can write space-porn, but I don't think it's appropriate for those characters.)

As a side-note, if it's the age gap bothering folks, well, there's a long tradition of older man and younger woman. Starts with Hesiod, Ancient Greece; he reckoned that a man in his early thirties was established, and wealthy enough to support a wife. The said wife should be younger, so that there was time for a family. And there's an age gap (for pretty much those reasons) in all the significant 'romance' novels - Bronte, Austen etc. Just a thought.

Of course, if it's the idea that a seventeen year old might be having feelings of a sexual nature that bothers you, then sorry. They cut her amygdala, not her libido. And, well, Mal. Hello, do you have eyes?

Interestingly, people who write an actual physical relationship with these two don't seem to get the same kind of stick. Guess I'm writing something with a little bit of the real to it, if it's getting under folk's skin...

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