river's limits

POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Monday, April 20, 2009 07:10
VIEWED: 20429
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NBZ

Sunday, January 20, 2008 12:11 AM

I have previously given this a lot of thought as too many writers seem to have gone down the sane kickass River route, (These people will probably be extra glad to see Sarah Connor Chronicles then - probably a similar role for her.) but I doubt that would fit with the 'verse.

In the BDM River got worse after the subliminal message, then got better after Miranda. By "Better" I take the minority view as better as relative to when she got worse, so she probably ended up in a state of mind similar to when the BDM started, or slightly better/worse than that.

Post BDM River will be very similar to Pre-BDM River, but a more known quantity. A known danger that must be supervised in places where she can cause a lot of damage. Like on the bridge. (so... not the pilot.)

She will still struggle with everyday things, find minutiae absolutely important and be awed by everyday things("I heard with my ears..."). She will still dislike violence.

She can't see the future, and does not know the answer to everything.

She will feel guilt for what happened in the BDM. Probably will not know what to do about it, so may be over eager to help in any way possible.

She will struggle with some good times, some bad. Her talking will still be just as cryptic.

She will still be able to read and it will be the same sensation of getting hit with waves. Waves that mostly have no meaning. Something she will pick up a stray thought or two that she can process (how correctly is up for debate), but will not read minds as if they are a book, or an encyclopedia. She will be able to tell how they feel. Same as before.

From the rest of the crew, Jayne will still be scared of her, but now with justification, Simon will still be overprotective, Zoe will still feel sorry for her, Mal still feel the need to be the protector, Kaylee still the friend with a little bit of fear. No idea about Inara.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, January 20, 2008 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Very good post. :)

I second this. Schooner's post is what set me to thinking about the whole superhero issue. Interesting stuff.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

ASARIAN

Sunday, January 20, 2008 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

I find myself agreeing with basically everyone above me. I suppose that great minds do think alike

I disagree with people saying that she's "saner". She's still going to have the same problems- they weren't mysterously "cured" by Miranda. It's just that she has a better chance of being able to absorb all the data that's coming into her, that she might be able to make it make sense. It's not the same thing as her "insanity" going away.

Post-BDM River certainly ain't cured. Nor entirely sane: she'll always remain a mite whimsical in the brainpan.

One thing, though, River will no longer have to deal with, are the harrowing 'memories' of Miranda. As I said in another thread about River's sanity, I reckon, for Firefly River, that her reality matrix destabilizes, time and again, because of "The memory, it isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine." It's hard for her as it is, since she cannot not feel; but on top of that she has to contend with superimposed memories that keep haunting her like the nasty flashbacks that they... aren't, really -- but which she has to deal with nonetheless. At Miranda itself, River is finally able to largely release, or disown, those memories. This cannot compensate, in full, for her missing amygdala, but at least these 'ghosts' are no longer throwing a (space) monkey-wrench into her mind. Simon said:

"The medications are erratic, there's not one that her system can't eventually break down, and you have to recalibrate."

It's my estimation that this goes for River's mending process, too: highly adaptive as River's system is, eventually her brain will recalibrate and try and make up for the damage done. A job which she'll find a lot easier now, having unloaded the Miranda crap.

There will no doubt be other conditioning she'll have to deal with, one way or the other. She will probably stabilize, to a degree. And I think there will be more days that she can function like she's a girl, and play with Kaylee, and hear with her ears, etc. But I doubt it's possible for a person like River to ever become fully healed.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PLATONIST

Sunday, January 20, 2008 1:15 AM

Since we are on the topic of River's portrayal in fanfic, post Miranda, does anyone have any favorites to share?

My personal fav is Leiasky's "Broken Wings", where River requests and obtains refinement of her martial arts training, from the Guild, and ultimately gains control of her skills and helps the Browncoats.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, January 20, 2008 4:51 AM

Responding to the 1st post:
Post BDM, I would tend to think that River:

Has much better control of her thoughts and memories.

Will still be susceptible to subliminal triggers from those Alliance who know them (who are most likely dead now, after the Operative's visit). These will be the only way she will be an unpredictable/uncontrollable weapon. For some time after BDM, the Alliance has all those riots and stuff to suppress, forgetting to hassle River for a while (bigger fish to fry). Without being chased all the time, she will also more rapidly adapt to her environs - no longer captive to the Institute.

Will have control over her weapon state.

Will still be able to read others, and much more clearly, but will be more selective about who she shares this info with.

Her high intellect will still cause her to not clearly communicate with others, and she is still learning how to deal with being outside the controlled Institute. Comments like swallowing bugs, and can we go for another ride will still occur but with decreasing frequency. Communing with the cows will still happen.

Her medications, metabolism, and body chemicals have stabilized, leaving her more in control than before BDM.
Her handling of weapons will be under her control - like the three shots in War Stories, and reaver bait in BDM.

MOONPIE

Monday, January 21, 2008 2:59 PM

The way I write River is:
First, she's far from sane, still being affected by the experimental surgery that turned her into a reader, and other procedures that turned her into a weapon. This can't help but make her overly sensitive. She is also deeply troubled by the loss of clarity she once had. She relies on her intelligence to maintain what sanity she has. While she's no less intelligent, her ability to focus on a problem and use that profound intelligence has been compromised. Sometimes her mind is clear, sometimes she can hardly remember where she is. I liken her situation to that of a person who is suffering the beginning stages of Alzheimer's and feels that the person they used to be is slipping away. It is deeply depressing at times, knowing that something irreplaceable and invaluable has been taken from her.

Second, she has found some clarity since Miranda. My theory: they couldn't selectively remove her memories, so they blocked them by associating them with very negative emotions like fear and loneliness. This was doing her a great deal of harm and was the source of her panic attacks. Visiting Miranda, seeing the reality of it, and being in the presence of Reavers, enabled her to separate reality from the false, imposed memories and feelings. This has given her enough peace of mind to be able to carry on a conversation and pilot the ship, most days. I see her as still having episodes that turn her into a basket case. Crowds, fights, being over–tired, and other stressful situations tend to make her fall apart.

And third, as regards her physical abilities, I have a whole theory about how these are implanted by neural electrical stimulation using recordings of the neural and physical reactions of experts with years of training as they exercise or even go on missions. So, for example, a portable neural recorder could be carried by a few different snipers as they went out on actual missions, the records edited together, then downloaded directly into River's brain, making her an expert sniper even without her having ever picked up a rifle. This would save years of training, among other things. (They are already training Olympic athletes by direct electrical stimulation of muscles, and electrical "maps" have been made of the brains of people during different activities. I like my SF to be grounded in ideas and technologies that are at least theoretically possible.) Of course, because River has a certain amount of bad wiring, and PTSD to rival Mal's, she isn't always reliable as a weapon or what have you.

While I suppose the notion of the Alliance being able to "trigger" some behavior in River might be a useful McGuffin, for myself I see it as a moot issue, since she so clearly made a conscious choice in her "danse d'mort" (or "ballet o'blood" if you prefer) with the Reavers.

(Posted here because it seems relevant to the current discussion.):
RE: an earlier discussion (posted 1/15) about intelligence.
A popular standard now measures seven different "types" or "aspects" of intelligence, each equally important: Analytical (logical), Spatial (abstract visualization), Musical, Physical (coordination), Emotional (self–awareness), Social ('people skills'), and Innovational (inventiveness). Conventionally "smart" people are often quite dumb in some ways.

Some truly exceptional people, like River, are able to apply their intelligence universally. It was this ability that made it possible both for her to survive the Academy/Institute and to regain a measure of sanity.

And finally, one peeve I have about how some write River: there is nothing in either Firefly or the BDM that indicates she can see the future, beyond what she might infer from what she percieves. Perhaps people are confused by the term "psychic," eh?

WYTCHCROFT

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:45 AM

great posts!:)

MRMGRAPHICS

Saturday, February 2, 2008 6:18 AM

+

Quote:
And finally, one peeve I have about how some write River: there is nothing in either Firefly or the BDM that indicates she can see the future, beyond what she might infer from what she percieves. Perhaps people are confused by the term "psychic," eh?

Umnn...not so sure.

Watch "Out of Gas" real close, at the 8:35 mark. River says "fire...." a good 5 seconds before there is any sight or sound of fire sweeping through Serenity.

It begs the question: Was she sensing a fire that was already burning toards the crew? Or a fire that had not yet started?

Regardless, she knows about the fire before anyone else, so clearly this is not an example of mind-reading, as no one's mind knows about the fire for her to read it there. So what is it?

Intuition, because of her connection with the ship? Or a slight ability to see into the future?

I could swear there's one more example in the Firefly series of River knowing about something a few seconds before it happens -- I'll post if I find it -- but this a perfect example for now.

mrmgraphics
(website under serious reconstruction, if not life-saving surgery)

ASARIAN

Sunday, February 3, 2008 7:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mrmgraphics:

Quote:
And finally, one peeve I have about how some write River: there is nothing in either Firefly or the BDM that indicates she can see the future, beyond what she might infer from what she percieves. Perhaps people are confused by the term "psychic," eh?

Umnn...not so sure.

Watch "Out of Gas" real close, at the 8:35 mark. River says "fire...." a good 5 seconds before there is any sight or sound of fire sweeping through Serenity.

It begs the question: Was she sensing a fire that was already burning toards the crew? Or a fire that had not yet started?

Regardless, she knows about the fire before anyone else, so clearly this is not an example of mind-reading, as no one's mind knows about the fire for her to read it there. So what is it?

Intuition, because of her connection with the ship? Or a slight ability to see into the future?

I could swear there's one more example in the Firefly series of River knowing about something a few seconds before it happens -- I'll post if I find it -- but this a perfect example for now.

Well, "a slight ability to see into the future" is like being slightly pregnant. :) Either she can or she can't. And while she can't not feel, I don't feel she can't not see the future (uhh, yeah, it makes sense). In short: I don't think she can. :) Joss spoke of Early that he was "So intuitive as to be nearly psychic." So, to paraphrase the man, I would say of River that she's so psychic as to be nearly precog. In Out of Gas, I guess, River's simply picking up on minute vibrations in the hull, maybe a faint smell, an engine noise being slightly off, etc. And she simply put it together. She simply "did the math", as Kaylee would say -- even subconsciously.

Lemme save you the trouble of looking for that "one more example", cuz I'm thinking you're thinking Ariel, where she 'predicts' the following, right?

"Going to die. (...) He is. (...) He's not going to help him right. (...) He's killing him!"

I initially took it as prima facie evidence for her precog abilities, too; but after their "first appearance" things always look a mite different. And I now believe there's nothing to indicate, really, that she did anything else than merely glean the intern's mind and/or pick up on the vital signs of the patient -- again putting it all together with her highly intuitive mind.

Of course, there are other schools of thought. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

MOONPIE

Thursday, February 7, 2008 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
She's not a violent person, but I don't think she knows it. Does that make sense? Um... I mean that she could end up learning about guilt and remorse, and it'll be a hard thing on her.

Yes, I like that. I see River as being capable of extreme violence as a result of her training/programming, including killing when it may not be necessary, and not realizing what she was doing until after it was done. The process of recognizing that in herself and in coming to terms with it emotionally is an important part of her character arc. Her slowly growing clarity and control are a part of this as well.

During the course of the series it seemed that she was slowly getting better, especially in "Objects in Space", where she pulled off a complicated plan and kept her head the whole time. I believe it generally takes months for a brain to rewire itself (as opposed to weeks or years) after major brain surgery or an injury where certain skills or awareness are lost. This fits with the elapsed time of the series/BDM. Joss seemed to make it clear that, in addition to physically healing, her experiences on Beaumonde and especially Miranda had afforded her both a measure of clarity and some inner peace. I believe that she would still have relapses: episodes of disassociation, nightmares and panic attacks.

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