Why River is more sane than you.
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2008 18:34
VIEWED: 10061
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To insert comparisons here, we might consider among the above arguments that most of you would consider:
Bruce Willis and Madeline Stowe characters are insane in 12 Monkeys.
Sarah Connor, Kyle are insane in Terminator.
Sarah and later John Connor are insane in T2.
Michael Duncan Clark and Tom Hanks and other guards characters in The Green Mile are insane.
Galileo was insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS the world is flat, and the sun revolves around the Earth.
Wilbur and Orville Wright were insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS man cannot take flight in a plane.
Thomas Edison was insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS you cannot harness the energy of electricity.
Every charactrer on the team was insane in Predator.
Ripley was insane in Aliens, plus anybody else who saw an alien.
In summary, almost every protangonist in SciFi is insane because they see or know something that EVERYBODY KNOWS does not exist.
Wish I could recall the original author: When faced with a choice of conforming to the world around him or making the world conform to him, the reasonable man will choose to conform to the world around him. Thus all progress in human history is accomplished by the most unreasonable of men.
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Also, I realize John Glenn is also insane because everybody knows the world is flat, but upon his return after orbiting in Friendship 7 (IIRC), he found waiting for him a telegram from The Flat Earth Society. The message: "Wise guy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
To insert comparisons here, we might consider among the above arguments that most of you would consider:
Bruce Willis and Madeline Stowe characters are insane in 12 Monkeys.
Sarah Connor, Kyle are insane in Terminator.
Sarah and later John Connor are insane in T2.
Michael Duncan Clark and Tom Hanks and other guards characters in The Green Mile are insane.
Galileo was insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS the world is flat, and the sun revolves around the Earth.
Wilbur and Orville Wright were insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS man cannot take flight in a plane.
Thomas Edison was insane - EVERYBODY KNOWS you cannot harness the energy of electricity.
Every charactrer on the team was insane in Predator.
Ripley was insane in Aliens, plus anybody else who saw an alien.
In summary, almost every protangonist in SciFi is insane because they see or know something that EVERYBODY KNOWS does not exist.
Wish I could recall the original author: When faced with a choice of conforming to the world around him or making the world conform to him, the reasonable man will choose to conform to the world around him. Thus all progress in human history is accomplished by the most unreasonable of men.
I'm not finding it in the thread, so maybe you can help me out. Where was it argued that River (or anyone) is insane because she disputed something everyone "knows"?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'm not finding it in the thread, so maybe you can help me out. Where was it argued that River (or anyone) is insane because she disputed something everyone "knows"?
I think right here, when jewelstaitefan wrote opened with:
"2. She sees things differently, not only because of her intellect, but additionally because of her Extra Sensory gifts and talents."
Jewelstaitefan, I ask you, though, that we first have an understanding between us on what "insane" really means; or what we say it will mean in this thread. For example, I, and others too, have argued that the clinical definition for insanity is closer to "The inability to stay within reality." (add extra qualifiers when desired: that was just a very loose definition). The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, for instance, says:
-- 1: a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
Like "paranoid schizophrenia" (what Simon diagnosed her with having).
The French have a good saying: "Pour discuter, il faut être d'accord." Roughly translated: "To argue, you (first) have to agree." Agree on the definitions, that is. There's really no point in discussing whether or not River is insane -- or, for that matter, more "sane" than you -- without us first agreeing on what definition of "insane" we'll be using here. For instance, you could use this one:
-- 3 a: extreme folly or unreasonableness b: something utterly foolish or unreasonable
But, obviously, you then get a completely different discussion. :)
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Ability to stay within reality, I agree with. Ability to stay within YOUR reality, no. To limit sanity to be to stay within your limited view of reality is unreasonable.
Agentrouka: Some have argued here and elsewhere that River is insane because she does not stay within the reality that others view. Because "a large number" or "most" others percieve a limited sensory intake, then THEY should be the measure by which River should be compared, and not using the full capacity of human senses to mesure River against.
Again, just because YOU (not specifically you) do not understand River, does not mean SHE is the one who is not sane.
In some of my examples, the listed insane are aware of something that the others have not seen, therefore do not believe in, therefore it does not exist, and the protagonist is insane - not stying within reality.
I'm wondering if I should have clearly stated that my thread title was somewhat tongue in cheek.
I did hope to get people to open up a little regarding River's view, and lighten up a bit when accusing her of being different than others.
Many people quote Simon's diagnosis. Not only do I think Simon's quotes might be mistaking symptoms for actual diagnosis, but he cannot sense all that River can, so his limited knowledge also hampers his ability to understand that all that River senses is real, because it is not real to him - he can't sense it. Simon considering River insane is akin to the Madeline Stowe character diagnosing the Bruce Willis character insane in 12 Monkeys.
Simon is also trying out different diagnostic assumptions. He tries to see if River is a multiple personality with Miranda - River says I'm not a double, dumbo. Simon's diagnosis does impress me NOT.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Ability to stay within reality, I agree with. Ability to stay within YOUR reality, no. To limit sanity to be to stay within your limited view of reality is unreasonable.
Personally, I think you might be taking this a mite too personally.
Quote:
Agentrouka: Some have argued here and elsewhere that River is insane because she does not stay within the reality that others view.
(...)
I did hope to get people to open up a little regarding River's view, and lighten up a bit when accusing her of being different than others.
There ain't no one in the 'Verse says River is insane, no less "accusing" her of anything, merely because she's different or not conforming to their reality -- I wonder why you keep hearing that. You might wanna look to that.
Quote:
Many people quote Simon's diagnosis. Not only do I think Simon's quotes might be mistaking symptoms for actual diagnosis, but he cannot sense all that River can, so his limited knowledge also hampers his ability to understand that all that River senses is real, because it is not real to him - he can't sense it. Simon considering River insane is akin to the Madeline Stowe character diagnosing the Bruce Willis character insane in 12 Monkeys.
Simon is also trying out different diagnostic assumptions. He tries to see if River is a multiple personality with Miranda - River says I'm not a double, dumbo. Simon's diagnosis does impress me NOT.
It's your good right to dismiss, or doubt, the good Doctor's diagnosis. But, in terms of internal consistency, there's nothing in the series or otherwise that points to him being anything else than "gifted" -- top three percent and all -- and knowing exactly what he's doing. See Ariel. And as for River being MPD, he doesn't make that diagnosis, now, don't he? :)
But if you won't take Simon's word for it, will you consider River's?
"Played with Kaylee. The sun came out, and I walked on my feet and heard with my ears. I hate the bits, the bits that stay down and I work, I function like I'm a girl. I hate it because I know it'll go away! The sun grows dark and chaos has come again. It's... fluids. What am I?"
See, it ain't about staying within the reality of others at all. It's the walls of her OWN reality that she cannot maintain. Not always. She has her good moments. Notice, if you will, the part where River says: "(...) and I walked on my feet and heard with my ears." Meaning: at times she takes in sensory input the way other humans do: no voices (Early! beginning of OiS), no echoes of the past, no hitching on to psychic frequencies, etc.
I reckon part why River cannot keep reality focussed, is because of "The memory, it isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine." (BDM). It's hard for her as it is, since she cannot not feel; but on top of that she has to contend with superimposed memories that keep haunting her like the nasty flashbacks that they... aren't, really -- but which she has to deal with nonetheless.
At Miranda itself, River is finally able to largely release, or disown, those memories. This cannot compensate, in full, for her missing amygdala, but at least these 'ghosts' are no longer throwing a (space) monkey-wrench in her mind. Simon said:
"The medications are erratic, there's not one that her system can't eventually break down, and you have to recalibrate."
It's my estimation that this goes for River's mending process, too: highly adaptive as River's system is, eventually her brain will recalibrate and try and make up for the damage done. A job which she'll find a lot easier now, having unloaded the Miranda crap.
Finally, on a personal note, I witness your frustration levels rising a bit. You took the position that River is special: sees more, knows more, etc. And therefore is more "sane" than others. I doubt there be many would disagree with the former: River IS highly gifted, and unique. But, to be frank, I think you painted yourself a bit in the corner when you tied said speci
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Agentrouka: Some have argued here and elsewhere that River is insane because she does not stay within the reality that others view.
I haven't really seen that, though. I've seen people argue the point that River is unable to control her behavior and communicate with others because she is unable to expand her perceived reality to that which most share. (Note: not leave her own, just expand to include the others.) She has no touching point with the common space where most people's realities intersect. Or, say, very few touching points. Does that not figure into the equation? You can call it something other than insane if you want, but it doesn't remove the facts, AND in that case I would like to know what YOUR definition of insanity is, to separate it from River's condition.
If a person's reality includes the certainty that they can fly by flapping their arms and they jump off a building.. how valid does that aspect of their reality rate? Similarly to River's twigs and leaves in the cargo bay?
If a person stabs and eats babies because their reality demands it, are we wrong to classify them as insane?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Agentrouka: Some have argued here and elsewhere that River is insane because she does not stay within the reality that others view.
I haven't really seen that, though. I've seen people argue the point that River is unable to control her behavior and communicate with others because she is unable to expand her perceived reality to that which most share.
I must have been unclear about this. River, now exposed to the real world again without Institute controls and commands, must now constrain her reality to reduce it to what other around her percieve. River sees much more than the rest of us, so now to relate to us she must filter out what we cannot see. The persons needing expansion of perception would be everybody, not River.
Quote:
(Note: not leave her own, just expand to include the others.) She has no touching point with the common space where most people's realities intersect. Or, say, very few touching points. Does that not figure into the equation? You can call it something other than insane if you want, but it doesn't remove the facts, AND in that case I would like to know what YOUR definition of insanity is, to separate it from River's condition.
If a person's reality includes the certainty that they can fly by flapping their arms and they jump off a building.. how valid does that aspect of their reality rate? Similarly to River's twigs and leaves in the cargo bay?
If they really can fly, then they would be insane to succumb to ideas that they could not.
River can sense these things that nobody else does, she's not delusional. She knows they are ghosts in Bushwhacked before anybody else does. She knows the reavers are rage driven at the end of BDM, even though nobody else can sense their thougths like she can. She knows the problem with Serenity is Fire before anybody else knows in Out of Gas. She knows what happened to silent Ruby in Safe, and how the Patron murdered the previous Patron, even though nobody else byut Ruby and the Patron understand this. She knows where the 3 targets are without opening her eyes to shoot in War Stories. She knows the Hands of Blue have arrived before anybody else knows in Ariel. She knows Saffron is a thief before anybody else knows in OMR. She knows which girls Simon likes when nobody else knows. She knows the Miranda memory is not hers, and that she was triggered in Maidenhead - "to show her off like a dog", even when others take a while to finally learn it.
River's view IS reality, but she's surrounded by those who cannot expand their perception enough to understand her.
Throughout the BDS and BDM it is proven, time and time again, that what River senses IS reality, and is proven to be reality, regardless of what the others around her can't understand.
Quote:
If a person stabs and eats babies because their reality demands it, are we wrong to classify them as insane?
She does not stab or eat babies when she is in reality - but I did point out she is programmed to when subliminally triggered. However, slashing a bit of Jayne might be reasonable at times.
Also, in general terms, I did not equate intellect with sanity. The intellect causes the discommunication factor, so we cannot fully understand what she says and it's context no matter how sane she is. The sanity factor is her trying to learn what others around her can see (and cannot see) so she can find common points of reference to communicate with them. These are 2 different factors in the dialogue that we (and other BDH) find confusing.
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Quote:OK, you may say Simon's knowledge is limited. If you want. But Joss is the expert, right? He created the character River Tam, he knows her inside out, he defines her.
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Many people quote Simon's diagnosis. Not only do I think Simon's quotes might be mistaking symptoms for actual diagnosis, but he cannot sense all that River can, so his limited knowledge...
You'll note that in the movie commentary, I forget exactly where it is, but in a scene where River is spouting nonsense, Joss says that he wanted to show that she really was off, that there was something really *wrong* with this girl. I forget his exact words, but the impression I got was that it's just not being a reader that gets to her, but she's actually a bit nuts.
Now, that's enough to convince me!
As for the idea that if what a person's doing makes sense to them, they are by definition sane...
1) Most insane people do things that make perfect sense to them! Many a sober alcoholic will refer to their past selves as insane, because while drinking they did some crazy shit. While they were drinking it made sense, but their minds were all twisted up. Once they're dried out and thinking straight, they realize how off they were.
2) River's actions often don't even make sense to her. "I don't know what I'm saying, I never know what I'm saying..." "The voices, they talk to me..." etc... She is not in control of herself.
And I think that's the key: during the series and most of the movie, River is unable to be her true self, to pursue the things that make her happy. She is incapable of inhabiting her own brain and her own emotions, of forming relationships that she would like. And she knows this, during her short periods of lucidity. ("You found me broken") Really, I think she's the first person who would label herself insane.
JSF - this not a judgement of River, or a dismissal of her abilities. She is still a very bright girl. But she is damaged. She is not herself. This has been stated by damn near every character, including River, and it's been spelled out by Joss. It doesn't mean we don't love and respect River, it's just how it is.
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Quote:Your argument seems to be that because River has this ESP thing, she is automatically sane and everyone is insane... until they learn to read her mind as well. It's like you're defining sanity based on River's state.
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
River's view IS reality, but she's surrounded by those who cannot expand their perception enough to understand her.
Hey, the fact that River knows of true things is beside the point - it's her inability to express and act on this information that pushes her out of the realm of sanity. Which - yeah, with good reason! What she's been through would make me stark raving nuts too!
I think there is a sane River. It's the little girl we see in the beginning of Safe, the teenager in the earliest of the River Tam Chronicle things, the young woman in the bridge of Serenity at the end of the BDM, telling Mal: "[Yes I know what you're thinking...] but I like to hear you say it..." Those are the sane River.
A sane River would have said: "Jayne, I don't like your tshirt because it's Blue Sun and Blue Sun does bad things." The insane River goes at him with a knife.
A sane River would have said: "Be careful going onto that wreck, because there are a bunch of dead bodies." The insane River just wondered about until she found the source of the "noise" or whatever she sensed.
A sane River would have told the crew that the creepy men in blue gloves were coming after her. The insane River just hid in a corner and chanted to herself.
A sane River would have told Simon: "Jayne turned us in on Ariel, the rat bastard!" The insane River just babbled about the things she sensed until she finally found a way to express herself: "Afraid we'll know..." (And it's not even clear to me that she meant to tell Simon, she seemed to be kind of thinking out loud as she often does.)
Not one of these is a situation where "intellect causes the discommunication factor." It has nothing to do with her smarts - River is truly incapable of functioning. With medical treatment and therapy (therapy being the jaunt to Miranda LOL!) she gets her functionality back. She returns to sanity. Still smart, still ESPgirl, but able to act on it rationally.
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