Would you say River is the soul of the ship?

POSTED BY: PhyreLight
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 8, 2008 14:54
VIEWED: 10095
PAGE 4 of 6

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, January 5, 2008 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Mal = Serenity
Zoe = all things survival
Wash = balance, normality, trust
Kaylee = hope
Inara = love, sensuality
Jayne = base insticts
Book = external value system (religion)
Simon = internal value system (nobility)
River = spirit (internal force)

Forgot to mention, AR - very nice. I find your take on Simon and Book expecially thought-provoking.

As for Jayne, I also disagree with calling him just a penis. Sure, he's got a sex drive, but it's the way he's so unfiltered and almost boyishly open about it that sticks with me. And he's like that about everything that's important to him - alcohol, violence, guns. I think his openness about his urges is the defining thing. So yeah - "base instinct" is perfect!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

RIVERFLAN

Saturday, January 5, 2008 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

River, though, makes sense outside of dream-logic, too. Her problems are real and her powers are too super-natural to account for something as natural as the subconscious. It's not just a case of connecting unconnected facts.

She doesn't just know things that the others aren't consciously aware of, she knows things they could not naturally be aware of, and she definitely poses lots of moral and philosophical questions to the crew. That's a bit more spiritual than mere psychology.

I'm not saying that River is only a dream. I'm saying is the sub-concious part, and that parts of her act like dreams do. And she uses her powers subconciously mostly- she doesn't think "Oh, I'll just read this person's mind today". And it could be argued that the subconcious has the spirit inside it.

Swirligigs!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 5, 2008 4:56 PM

Thank you!

I'm very fond of those two as a concept, myself. We keep seeing those two in interesting constellations to Mal.

They keep asking the same things of Mal: to make moral choices. Simon because of what he is and does, Book out of an external principle.

In "Safe" Mal does the same thing Simon does: sacrifice Simon. He acts against his selfish inclincation because his emotions (Inara) prompt him to save someone he cares about, but in the same vain that Simon would never abandon River, Mal would never abandon him and takes additional risks. But in the end, he doesn't want to admit it. ("Why are we still talking about this?")

In "Ours Mrs. Reynolds" it's Mal's moral upbringing that keeps having the greatest issues with how he deals with Saffron: Book and his "special hell".

In "Bushwhacked", Simon's noble offer to help treat survivers is crudely rejected by Jayne. Book doesn't come in until it's about rituals and the "proper" thing to do. Mal let's Simon treat the Reaver boy even though he claims he'd rather kill him right away.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 5, 2008 5:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I'm not saying that River is only a dream. I'm saying is the sub-concious part, and that parts of her act like dreams do. And she uses her powers subconciously mostly- she doesn't think "Oh, I'll just read this person's mind today". And it could be argued that the subconcious has the spirit inside it.

I get that you're not saying River is just a dream, but I think that the description "subconscious" is not really fitting with what River does for the whole of Serenity. I'll agree that her thought processes and hallucinations have aspects of dreams to them, but all those things still center all around her. Not the ship or the crew or Mal. You can't describe her as the ship's subconsciousness because... Serenity doesn't have the Alliance trauma that River expresses when she rips labels off food cans. River only expresses herself.

Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too.

RIVERFLAN

Saturday, January 5, 2008 8:24 PM

yes, but I don't know another way to describe her... I don't think she's Serenity's soul because Serenity has her own soul already. It's what made Mal fall in love with Serenity. River wasn't on Serenity when Mal bought her, so she can't be the soul.

If you come up with another term, please feel free to label River

Also, I didn't come into this thread to argue about labels for River. Labels can help people describe others, but not even a psyciatrist (sp?) can put anough labels on a person to describe all that there is about them. So labels don't really matter that much, and I'm not going to spend a lot of energy arguing about labels.

Swirligigs!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

ASARIAN

Saturday, January 5, 2008 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

I seem to remember someone, I think it might have been Joss on one of the commentaries, saying that Mal gathered people together who represented parts of him, some of them parts that he had cut out of himself.

Though I can't immediately place all parts of Mal, I can readily see it of Kaylee, who, as AgentRouka identified it in a single word, represents Serenity's hope. I believe Kaylee -- or what she stands for, really -- fills up the God-shaped hole in Mal's heart.

Dance like no one is watching.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.

That's Kaylee. Plus a wrench. :) Kaylee's whole, child-like, attitude of unconditional trust and unrelenting faith in people is the culmination of all Mal wanted to have seen in his God, but couldn't. Kaylee vicariously carries those attributes for his God, as it were -- so he, and the crew, can draw from it without officially having to welcome God on Mal's boat. :) Cut Kaylee out, and it would mean a great disturbance in the Force, much like removing Book, the boat's conscience, proved rather detrimental to Mal's character in the BDM, making him more grim and prone to doing things he would, most like, not have done otherwise.

Hope is not an island unto itself, though: it's directed at something, a goal. Which is where River comes in. AgentRouka said: "River is basically Mal's forward drive." And so true that is! River gives Mal a renewed sense of purpose. He now has, again, a cause to believe in; and he has Kaylee near him, beaming neverending hope and trust, for when his mood gets darker than the space he moves in.

Btw, good thread! If voting were to occur, AgentRouka and Mal4prez would certainly get mine. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 5, 2008 8:49 PM

Deleted for double-postage. Real reply below.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, January 5, 2008 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
yes, but I don't know another way to describe her... I don't think she's Serenity's soul because Serenity has her own soul already. It's what made Mal fall in love with Serenity.

I guess that's the point where we disagree. :) I don't see Serenity as an entity of her own. To me, she is imbued with meaning by the people on her, like all objects, and Mal will only be truly free when he reaches the point where he doesn't need her anymore.

Good that we found out where we can agree to disagree, exactly. :)

Quote:

Also, I didn't come into this thread to argue about labels for River.

I thought that was the point of this thread? ;)

RIVERFLAN

Saturday, January 5, 2008 9:09 PM

The tread is asking about the possibility of River being the ship's soul. You could call that a label, but there's a difference between meaningful and useless labels. I'm not wanting to argue about meaningless labels.

And she imbued with meaning by the people on her, to use your phrase. Everything is, including people. But there's a difference between a deck of cards and a gun, even if they are brand-new and haven't been imbued yet. That's what I'm thinking of as the "soul" of Serenity: she's the personification of freedom for Mal, and the possibility to work and live for the rest of the crew.

Not trying to confuse the issue, but I do agree with you on that point. Maybe we're just lacking termonology and we're ending up using different labels to describe the same thing.

And I was also trying to back down a little, and try to keep this thread from turning into a RWED lol.

Swirligigs!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#

www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Saturday, January 5, 2008 9:14 PM

Just like to point out that the subconscious does effect the conscious. It isn't just dreams or whatnot (though they effect the conscious too.) It is what taps your conscious on the shoulder, tells it things it doesn't quite understand and would never work out on its own, and then disappears without explanation.

Whether we want to say River is the subconscious or not is another question entirely, but I just want to point out that I don't think, "Her effect on the others is not a subconscious one but a very aware one, too," is a valid reason for her not to be since often times you're very aware of the effect your subconscious has on you, even if not why it is having that effect.

For an example consider, "I don't know, just something about him bothers me." Presumably the reason she doesn't know what is bothering her is because the cause and effect isn't happening on a conscious level, but she is still very aware of being bothered.

I feel I've totally failed to make sense, but I'm going to post anyway in hopes someone can translate what I've said into understandable-speak.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT PAGE