Why River is more sane than you.

POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2008 18:34
VIEWED: 10061
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MAL4PREZ

Thursday, January 3, 2008 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Thing of it is, though, she has a problem with her brain being missing. :)

*snort* Good one.

Have to admit, I never saw Book's hair scene as anything but a bit of silliness, and I'm feeling silly about it.

It is such a clever connection to all the weighty things he must have in his head that freak River out - religion for one, his mysterious past for another. I can't believe I missed that!

Go those writers, for giving everything in this show layers!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 3, 2008 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

Have to admit, I never saw Book's hair scene as anything but a bit of silliness, and I'm feeling silly about it. It is such a clever connection to all the weighty things he must have in his head that freak River out - religion for one, his mysterious past for another. I can't believe I missed that!

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I never interpreted Book's hair scene to be anything more than a funny hair scene, either. :) Snow, religion, roofs, can't say as I feel burdened with an overabundance of guilt about not getting it, though. But I applaud those who do. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PONYXPRESSINC

Friday, January 4, 2008 7:36 AM

I find this interesting; the way it breaks down in my head is that trying to understand River is like me anthromorphising an ape only in reverse.

Reminds me of interviewing a guy for a job who had a severe developmental disorder coupled with a very high IQ. I watched him being patronised by the rather dim caseworker sent to help him through the interview process because he expressed a wish to work in a certain way that suited his particular needs. I could see the case workers point, what he wanted would be difficult for any firm to cope with, at least the kind of firm I was working for at the time, but at the same time he knew what he could do and what his limitations were. He essentially got patted on the head and told not to be a silly boy. She simply did not understand him. Neither did I if it came to that, but I do think that someone that smart might perceive things and follow a logic that can still be valid even though I can't understand it.

This guy's "logic" wasn't going to do anyone any harm. Obviously, in practice you can't have people wandering around slashing people’s chest because of a logic only they can understand.

A Headache for everyone all around I think.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, January 4, 2008 8:47 AM

I thought the snow on the roof comment was about, well, Book's hair. The snow on the roof is too heavy. His brain is in terrible danger.

To address the first post here, well, my IQ has been tested at 140. Now, not that I know the IQ of everyone I've ever talked to, but I don't think it's til someone hits 'average' that I start to think they're a bit mentally sub-normal. Likewise, it's the average and below crowd who seem to think that I'm just a bit odd, to use the wording of one of them. Maybe I'm wrong, and the people who think I'm out of my mind and I think are idiots have IQs of 120 or possibly even higher than that... but I have trouble believing that is the case. Now, Jayne might pigeonhole River into 'moonbrained' because he doesn't understand the complexity of it. The trauma and the drugs and the stripped emotional filter heightening extra-sensory abilities that no one fully understands, and the genius mind that drives it all, but the fact is that she is a little disjointed. Her own reality matrix has been fragmented. Though she may know more than anyone, she has trouble putting it into words, because she's so fragmented. She sees and feels things that aren't, for all intents and purposes, real. Like leaves and a tree branch that exist only as her perception of an object. Like thoughts and emotions that exist outside her own experience. Jayne doesn't understand that, because he doesn't have the intellect to understand that. He just sees it as crazy. It's not because her IQ is so much higher than his, it's because he doesn't understand the difference between 'moonbrained' and 'traumatized/controlled/fragmented' and probably doesn't much care to.

But I don't think River is entirely sane. I don't think that anyone who's been through what she went through and can see all the horrible things that exist inside certain minds could ever be entirely sane. It's not her fault nor the fault of her birth, but the fault of the medical team who made her a reader and drove needles into her eyes.

I don't think that being cautiously ashamed, or selectively ashamed, or in any way ashamed of who I am is any way to live my life.

ASARIAN

Friday, January 4, 2008 8:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

I thought the snow on the roof comment was about, well, Book's hair. The snow on the roof is too heavy. His brain is in terrible danger.

To address the first post here, well, my IQ has been tested at 140. Now, not that I know the IQ of everyone I've ever talked to, but I don't think it's til someone hits 'average' that I start to think they're a bit mentally sub-normal. Likewise, it's the average and below crowd who seem to think that I'm just a bit odd, to use the wording of one of them. Maybe I'm wrong, and the people who think I'm out of my mind and I think are idiots have IQs of 120 or possibly even higher than that... but I have trouble believing that is the case. Now, Jayne might pigeonhole River into 'moonbrained' because he doesn't understand the complexity of it. The trauma and the drugs and the stripped emotional filter heightening extra-sensory abilities that no one fully understands, and the genius mind that drives it all, but the fact is that she is a little disjointed. Her own reality matrix has been fragmented. Though she may know more than anyone, she has trouble putting it into words, because she's so fragmented. She sees and feels things that aren't, for all intents and purposes, real. Like leaves and a tree branch that exist only as her perception of an object. Like thoughts and emotions that exist outside her own experience. Jayne doesn't understand that, because he doesn't have the intellect to understand that. He just sees it as crazy. It's not because her IQ is so much higher than his, it's because he doesn't understand the difference between 'moonbrained' and 'traumatized/controlled/fragmented' and probably doesn't much care to.

But I don't think River is entirely sane. I don't think that anyone who's been through what she went through and can see all the horrible things that exist inside certain minds could ever be entirely sane. It's not her fault nor the fault of her birth, but the fault of the medical team who made her a reader and drove needles into her eyes.

You made beautiful, well thought-out points: all 140 of them. :) And I hear you in terms of IQ. What was that saying again? "Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a freak!" Hence, come to think of it, 'fast like a freak.' :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

CITIZEN

Friday, January 4, 2008 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hey - we should all have our wardrobes color-coordinated for our IQ ranges. That way, I wouldn't waste time trying to communicate with folks who are too smart or too stupid for me! Maybe just hats. My IQ group could be green, and I'd only socialize with other green hat-ers. The blue hats can clean my floors and hang out in seedy bars, and the red hats can design my cell phone and meet their red hat mates over chat groups for smarties. It'd be perfect!

I've never been fond of black hats.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RIVERFLAN

Sunday, January 6, 2008 2:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PonyXpressInc:
Reminds me of interviewing a guy for a job who had a severe developmental disorder coupled with a very high IQ. I watched him being patronised by the rather dim caseworker sent to help him through the interview process because he expressed a wish to work in a certain way that suited his particular needs. I could see the case workers point, what he wanted would be difficult for any firm to cope with, at least the kind of firm I was working for at the time, but at the same time he knew what he could do and what his limitations were. He essentially got patted on the head and told not to be a silly boy. She simply did not understand him. Neither did I if it came to that, but I do think that someone that smart might perceive things and follow a logic that can still be valid even though I can't understand it.

Gee, that sounds like me. I was tested for IQ when I was in preschool, and I got 180. Serious. But I also had Asperger's syndrom, or autism, so I had to get a lot of training, and it was only when I hit high school when I completely outgrew my autistic symptoms.

My grade-school teachers were, most of the time, stupider than me, and I'd always suggest better ways to do the lesson, because I got what they were trying to show, and the teachers would then label me as stupid because I obviously didn't know what they were talking about. One of them, my first grade teacher, even landed me in ISS because she was an athletic type and was just reading the textbook most of the time. Which is pitiful.

So I understand what JewelStaiteFan was trying to say. But that doesn't mean she isn't insane. She definately isn't fully in touch in reality, and that could be classified as insane. Insanity doesn't automatically mean stupid, and smarts don't mean sanity. Indeed, there is a fine line between genius and insanity, and River is walking directly on that line.

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ASARIAN

Sunday, January 6, 2008 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

Gee, that sounds like me. I was tested for IQ when I was in preschool, and I got 180. Serious.

Oh crap! There I was thinking I was doing a fair convincing job with my 145; and now, compared to you, I look like an idiot child. :) Oh well, here, out in the black, it don't mean much anyway. Right? Right?? :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PONYXPRESSINC

Sunday, January 6, 2008 7:05 AM

As it happens the guy in question had Asperger's.

Quote:
"So I understand what JewelStaiteFan was trying to say. But that doesn't mean she isn't insane."

JewelStaiteFan hasn't necessarily convinced me that River isn't insane either, I'm not really convinced of anything when it comes to River

, it was just a different angle that I found interesting.

Quote:
"...my first grade teacher, even landed me in ISS because she was an athletic type and was just reading the textbook most of the time. Which is pitiful.

I wish I was surprised, but I'm not. I was labelled as "Slow" when I first went to School, didn't read until I was seven, then, when I finally got there (mostly on my own) I read through three levels (years) worth of books in three months. I can still recall with great pleasure the look on the teacher's face when they finally asked me to read something and I rattled through it in fine style.

Still can't spell worth a damn though and punctuation, oh boy

.

Considering a person's complexities is hard work, requires thought and imagination, dismally, as you obviously know, a lot of people can't be bothered.

USMCHELLRAISER

Sunday, January 6, 2008 11:48 AM

Firstly, I liked the initial post that started this, even if I have no idea how accurate it is, it made me think, which is always good.

Secondly, I think the only practical definition of crazy is "I don't get it, and no one I like gets/would get it". Some of the most inarguably successful people in the world did things that no one else would have done.

River slashing Jayne makes perfect sense- imagine the dialogue River would hear from Jayne's thoughts day-to-day, and how he felt about her and her brother. She might have just been retorting in a way his mentality, which she had excellent access to, would understand. A ten-year old knows how to kill someone, she certainly knew the difference between a cut requiring some stitches and a fatal arterial/CNS attack.

You could also attribute her odd comments to a kind of laziness- people who are thinking three times faster than the person next to them sometimes don't want to speak three pages of dialogue to 'catch someone up' on what they just thought- it's sometimes easier to just say the last thing on your mind, and let them figure out the rest, or just to get it out of your head- I think internet posters could agree with this- hell, most of you didn't even read to this point.

By the way, what does it mean if you have a 141 I.Q.?

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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