Refining the canon timeline
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Monday, April 13, 2015 02:54
VIEWED: 13564
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I don't understand the emphasis on a prop versus Mal's actual words. He said 8 months. The operative also stated that 8 months ago Simon took River. I would think that those statements would be more "canon" than a prop.
Also, it makes no sense if Simon rescued her in 2516. She went into the school when she was 14 and Simon stated that he couldn't get near her for 2 years. Even going by the datapad, She entered the school 8/25/2515 and if Simon got her out in 2516, assuming late December, that's not even 1 1/2 years.
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
We went over this a long time ago already. But that's the natural turn of the worlds, I guess: all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. :)
It will happen again and again until we get our next movie which will answer all our questions!! Actually, our questions will be answered in the 4th sequel. I'm an optimist.
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I really should have, and intended to, more clearly clarify and classify the various conflicts,and associated validity levels.
The following references were fairly clear, precise, unambiguous, valid, accurate, and largely indisputable:
#1, 2, 3, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18.
These are not diffused by character motives or prevarications, and are as close to fact as we will find - clearly canon. Also, not one single of these references conflicts with any other of this group.
Next in the validity scale would be the group of references which are mostly quotes from characters, but are mostly not too vague. Saying 8 months does not likely mean exactly 8 months and zero days, but "about 8 months" could mean plus or minus a week or 2, and "at least 8 months" could mean more than 8 months but less than 9 months. Also, all of these do not directly conflict with the above group, and mostly not directly against each other:
6/7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 17, 19, 20, 21, and newly added 22, 23.
Because these do not conflict with the previous group of highest valid references, these should be considered fairly highly valid as well.
That leaves the references which conflict with the rest, and throw the timeline out of tolerance with the first group.
#4 - Inara's "8 months" in The Train Job.
#5 - Inara's "few weeks less than a year" in Bushwhacked.
#15 - Mal's "half year back" while looking down Saffrom's pistol barrel and holding his pistol on her.
Regarding When Mal bought Serenity, I read that was specified somewhere, but I don't recall where. It had to be after the POWs were released from confinement.
I did not include it yet in the centrally conflicting references, because it did not conflict, and it was another of the references derived from the above cetral timeline. Once we can have some agreement on the central timeline and which of the conflicting references most easily can be moderated, then all other times de5rived from this timeline can be specified. For instance, U-Day, Battle of Serenity Valley.
Regarding Jayne's coming aboard, I have no argument with the "met a year ago" reference in OMR Teaser, which would put it at October 2516. That was the only time reference for Jayne meeting Mal/Zoe that I've seen. It is not conflicting with the centrally conflicting references regardless.
Dealing with the newly added #22 and 23:
#22 reinforces Mal's "8 months" staement in BDM. Both can be considered to be not EXACTLY 8 months and zero days, but possibly more than 8 months and less than 9 months. It does appear that the closer to 8 months the timeline spans, the more accurate it will be.
#23 suggests that the year and a few months offered above as a timeline would be reasonably abbreviated as "a year", but other timeline would have htis be almost 2 years, making "a year" less accurate and less likely to be stated as such.
What other timelines have been posted? Where? I would really like to look at these.
Regarding the River DoB prop, the first several episodes were intro'd with "2517" I have read. OMR was Oct 17 or 18 of 2517. The Pilot had to be before that by at least 2 months, like mid-August. From mid-August 2517 to Jun 2518 would be 10 months, making both Mal and the Operative liars, and I don't get the feeling the Operative is inexact to that degree. If River was born Dec 00, she would have enrolled in August of 2515 at 14 years, like Simon said. At least 2 years later Simon got her out, making it at least Aug 2517 if she was only 16. The script for the Pilot states River-in-the-Box is 17.
About U-day: OMR is 17 or 18 October, and Book is walking around on Triumph Settlementin the Teaser. Book was injured and still recovering at the end of Safe. I feel Safe could have been 13, 14, or 15 Oct - but maybe before. Simon says in Safe that he and River have been aboard more than 2 months, making the Pilot about Mid Aug, possibly early Aug 2517. In The Train Job Simon first introduces River to Mal, and Book seems VERY new still, so U-Day is either the next day or within a week of Pilot, so
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I will say that one conclusion i have noticed, partly because I seem to be one of the few who do not consider River to be insane, is this:
In Safe, the flashback to the Tam Estate is 11 years earlier. River is 17. The 6th Anniv of U-Day has just passed, and the War for Planetary Dominance and Subjugation lasted 5 years. This means that River, at 6 years old, was already interested in the only recently formed and budding Independant Platoons. Whether she was making fun of them, or empathizing with them in her war game acting, she held an interest about these Independents.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
To state that the Pilot was in May 2517 and the BDM was Jun 2518 throws much of the first category into conflict. River cannot be 17 in both times 13 months apart. Those dates are not stated in canon that I've seen, but the references are. To defy clearcut canon in favor of quotes from characters seems ill advised.
As for quoting characters, I work by the following rule:
Age over elapsed time.
And by that I mean, that I consider people talking about their age, or that of their sister, a more reliable source of information than peeps quoting the passage of time. People toss the phrase "A year ago" around very loosely, but rarely are confused about their age or that of their siblings.
So, let's work from the age-angle first, looking at two times River's age is known to be seventeen. Flat fact: the only way for River-in-box to be already 17, is when the pilot takes place AFTER December 19, 2517. Then, June 4, 2518 -- the time of the BDM -- River is still seventeen. That logic works, but comes to bite one in the ass when you consider that it requires the pilot to start the second half of December 2517. You can make a compelling case stating the pilot must have taken place earlier, like August 2517, but then River-in-box is no longer seventeen -- you can't have your cookie and eat it.
Also, the time between, say, August 2517, as River's escape date, and December 2517 seems like a much more reasonable time for Simon to be in transit with River, as opposed to him having lugged around that box since November 2516.
So, December 2517, as start of the pilot, works for me. But then, if U-day is October 18, and Simon says in Safe that he and River have been aboard for more than 2 months -- which would put the beginning of the pilot at around August 2517 -- then River clearly was not seventeen at the time, or Simon was a liar. I was being sarcastic about Simon lying, of course, the point of which being that it's simply not possible to reconcile all these dates without something having to give. It's just a process of weeding out the most likely timeline. It ain't about who lies.
The Operative tells Dr. Mathias that Simon took River from him 8 months ago. That congrues a mite too well with Mal's 8 months. So, far as I'm concerned, you've sold me on the 8 months or so. I say 'or so', because keep in mind that River's escape PRECEEDS the start of the pilot by some time -- a period which is probably shorter than we may think.
So, where does that leave us? I'd say at June 4, 2518 -- the era of the BDM. Mind you, the 'start' of the BDM does not necessarily coincide with the main plot-line we're seeing. I've always argued that June 4, 2518 was the date the Operative was holding that pad. But first things first.
Again using River's age of seventeen as a solid beacon, we know the BDM must take place AFTER December 19, 2517, but no later than December 19, 2518. Otherwise, in both cases, River would not be seventeen. So, let's first take October 2517 as River's likely escape date. Until June 4, 2518 this makes for the 8 months after Simon took her from Dr. Mathias. If the pilot begins December 2517, then, factoring in Mal's 8 months, the main BDM story line would have taken place around August 2518 (the Operative having met up with Dr. Mathias a few months earlier, in June).
P.S. It's never "rude" to refer back to, or acknowledge work others have done in the past and on which we are now still building -- much like Newton said: "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." That prop Arisa found, and wrote about in her livejournal, was a major find, and contained vital information, like River's date of birth, year she went to the Academy, etc. Dates without which refining the timeline would be ever-so less refined.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Thanks to those who mentioned the Operative's 8 months line in BDM, and the Inara comment to Jubal.
Is the novelization considered canon? I didn't see Joss listed as consultant exactly.
There seem to be further conflict if we consider the BDM novelization to be canon.
Specifically, the Mal line "few months back" we left Book on Haven.
1. Simon takes River away from Dr. Mathias on Osiris. We don't know how long it took him to smuggle her to Persephone, a day or a week, not likely more than a week.
2. Simon brings River-in-the-Box on Serenity at Persephone in the Pilot.
3. In Those Left Behind, Inara (apparently) arrives at Training House, then Book says he is leaving, then the Operative is given the River assignment after "independent contractor" Dobson fails. This is written by Joss, so should not be in dispute.
4. In BDM script, written by Joss, the first scenes in the Institute records room, the Operative states that 8 months ago Simon Took River. This could mean a week more or less than 8 months. Then the Operative has the female assistant find the behavioral triggers and they create the subliminal message to trigger River to "lay them all down, like showing a dog", so they can find her. This is likely done within days, being "Alliance and high military", and is broadcast for a "few weeks" before River enters the Maidenhead - likely 2-3 weeks.
5. #4 means that BDM Lilac & Maidenhead scenes are between 8 months plus 1 week and 9 months after Simon takes River from Dr Mathias. Depending on the thime between River escape and pilot, Mal's "8 months" quote in BDM is likely in the range of 8 months to 8 months plus 3 weeks.
The conflict is that the Operative is given the assignment at the end of Those Left Behind, right when Book and Inara seem to leave. In the novelization, Mal is quoted as saying it's been "a few months back" that they left Book on Haven. If that is 2 months, and it took 3 weeks from Operative at the Institute until Maindenhead, then it apparently took 5 weeks for the Operative to get to the Institute on Osiris after getting the assignment - and he doesn't seem the type. Why would that be? Joss wrote both TLB and BDM, so why would he make the Operative wait 5 weeks before getting to his best lead on River? The primary conflict seems to be coming from the novelization where Mal says "few months back".
On another point, I keep seeing that people refer to Mal "talking rubbish" about time. But I don't understand why they think his "8 months" in BDM is rubbish, but hism "half year" in Trash is exact. the "half year" would certainly be a more inexact phrase, and more so since it is in an extremely stressful situation when he don't have a bunch of time to figure or calculate the passage of time - even if he calculated it to be 4 months, would he have said "a third year" or if he calculated 3 months would he have said "a quarter year back" instead? The "8 months" would be a bit more of an exact phrase, and it doesn't conflict with other time references.
i just would figure the 8 months to be less rubbish and the "half year" as more rubbish.
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Thinking about TLB content, The Blue Hand Men clearly know Mal and Serenity carry River, before they talk to Dobson. Surely they report in to HQ.
Serenity surely needs to register whenever they dock somewhere.
So when their asssignment goes to the Operative, when does he not just follow the Serenity paper trail, and why does he not know already who Mal, Zoe, Inara, and Serenity before the Maidenhead video.
That seems kinda wierd.
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I had mentioned Simon introduced River to Mal in The Train Job. However, that was just the script, and that line was not included in the final cut of the introduction scene, which ended "Mal. Bad. In the Latin."
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A week ago in post #4 I proposed a possible revised timeline. After wonderful input and discussion, here will be another, more refined revision of the timeline.
Two kinds of time will be mentioned. Episode time is the actual amount of time the episode lasts. Footprint is the amount of time implied in the episode. For instance, OoG only lasts a day of episode time, but because they will take the better part of a week to get to Greanleaf, the footprint is a week for this episode.
Early August 2517 - River escapes the Institute on Osiris. A day or week before Pilot.
approx 10-15 August 2517 - Pilot, 2 day Ep. From Carrier salvage to Persephone, 2nd day on Whitefall.
approx 14-19 Auguast 2517 - Ep1 The Train Job, 1-2 day Ep. After Pilot, River sleeps until U-Day here.
Late Aug to Mid Sept 2517 - Ep2 Bushwhacked, 1 Day Ep.
approx 20-24 Sept 2517 - Ep3 Shindig, 4 day Ep. Day 1 on Santo, 2-3 on Persephone, Day 4 in space w/ herd.
approx 15 October 2517 - Ep4 Safe, 1 day Ep. Three weeks since Shindig with herd. Ends with Book recovering in bed.
18 - 19/20 October 2517 - Ep5 Our Mrs. Reynolds, 2-3 day Ep. First day on Triumphn Settlement, 6 days to get to Beaumonde, to spend 2 weeks there. Footprint 18 Oct - 7 Nov 2517.
November 2517 - Ep6 Jaynestown, 2-3 day Ep. on Higgin's Moon. Will deliver to Bernoulli by end of week, being after 13 Nov.
Late Nov - Early Dec 2517 - Ep7 Out of Gas, 1 day Ep. Scheduled to arrive Greanleaf in a week, after 20 Nov.
Mid-late December 2517 - Ep8 Ariel, 2-3 day Ep.
1st half of January 2518 - Ep9 War Stories, 1-2 day Ep.
End Jan or early Feb 2518 - Ep10 Trash, Ep is 72 hours. At least 3 weeks after WS.
1st week of February 2518 - Ep11 The Message, Ep is 3 days from Space Bazaar to St. Albans, right after Trash.
Mid February 2518 - Ep12 Heart of Gold.
Late February 2518 - Ep13 Objects in Space, 1 day Ep. Will arrive in New Melbourne in 3 days.
End February 2518 - Those Left Behind. Starts in Constance.
Early April 2518 - Serenity, Operative at Institute.
Late April 2518 - Serenity, after a few weeks of Fruity Oaty Bar broadcasts. One day from Lilac to Beaumonde (Maidenhead), Haven, Training House, Haven, Miranda, Mr. Universe. Days in a Repair Facility.
River is 16 in Early Aug 2517 and 17 before the Pilot, so she was born 1st half of August 2500.
From Early Aug to Early Apr is the 8 months the Operative states.
From Early/mid Aug to late Apr is the 8 months that Mal states.
From End of Feb to Late Apr is "these last months" that Sheydra refers to in script (edited scene).
Unification Day was about mid August 2511. The War for Domination of the verse started in 2506.
If this seems to work out, I'll probably add in the other dates which have no conflict and merely refer to other dates in the above timeline nucleus.
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Quote:
Originally posted by CharlieBZ:
The operative also stated that 8 months ago Simon took River. I would think that those statements would be more "canon" than a prop.
Actually, Dr. Mathias said no such thing. You got that from the Visual Companion, didn't ya? :) Well, the book is wrong. This whole conclusion is fallacious. The VC is notorious for misquoting (look up Mal's Love speech, for instance). Don't touch it, it's evil. :) In reality, the Operative just says:
OPERATIVE
River was your greatest
success. A prodigy.
A phenomenon.
Until her brother
walked in here
and took her from you.
Exit "8 months".
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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But the VC is so pretty! And has all that extra M/I stuff which I'm such a sucker for.
Now I'll have to force myself to watch the BDM again just to confirm what you said. Tough job, I know, but in the interest of verification I'll make myself sit through it. 
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