And now for something completely different
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 19:14
VIEWED: 15117
PAGE 5 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:This ends up being more of a tie back to the 'ends and means' discussion; there's a price I perceive to the FSM position which I'm not willing to pay.
Originally posted by citizen:
..so why...
What do you perceive that price to be, though? I'm asking in all honesty. I don't see one.
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Quote:It's more believable than Scientology, which itself was started only to make Ron L Hubbard money. Yet apparrently that's a real religion.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I have to come out of lurkdom to say that I agree with leadb. I mean, come on - there's not anyone out there who seriously, truly believes in their core that the FSM is real. Most everything about Pasterafarianism (wow - whatta word!) has been set up to silly, to be ridiculous. On purpose. It's a tongue in cheek bit of loopiness, supposed to be funny and ironic and make a point about teaching creationism in our schools, which I think it's hugely successful at.
But back to it, you can agree with leadb that its all a joke as much as you like, but condemning the argument based on the motivations of the source is an Ad Hominem. All I'm doing is looking at the two arguments on merit, not on my estimation of the motivations of the sources. They're logical merits are identical, and Ad Hominems always have been, and always will be, an invalid argument. How would you like it if you made an argument, and I said "But you don't mean it so your argument is bollocks". It's not a refutation, it's a cop out.
Beyond that, who are you think to tell other people what they believe and what they don't? Leadb seems to be suggesting that he can always say a 'pastafarian' is lying. Personally I think if you can say "all pastafarians are lying", I can say "All Christians are lying". I have no right to tell anyone else what they believe, and neither does anyone else.
Also, where did I say they should be seen the same on an individual level? I said the aruments are logically equivelent, not that individuals have to believe the FSM if they believe in Christianity, or any other such thing. Where anyone could get that idea is utterly beyond me.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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I agree with Citizen.
Whilst it may be true that the FSM was created as a sarcastic comparison to the belief in the Lord or any other faith, now that it has been created, one cannot disprove this theory any more than one can disprove the Creationist theory. The fact is that this could be true, even if the source doesn't believe it himself (he may have hit on the truth unintentionally; no one can prove to the contrary), so it is just as valid or invalid as the theory of the one God.
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Quote:Believe me, I'm with you on that! If we're going with logic, which every government official and schoolboard member and classroom textbook writer should, any system of beliefs is equal to any other. All are based on blind faith, and therefore are not provable. Not a single one has a place in the science curriculum. Period.
Originally posted by SpaceHopper:
so it is just as valid or invalid as the theory of the one God.
But here's the thing - religion is not about logic. And don't bust my balls (if I had them) over this - I'm as logical as they come. Scientist here. Atheist. Hardcore. See my posts here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29741
But I think you're stretching it to ask someone who's grown up with the Bible to honor the FSM the same way they honor the One True God, as they see it. I mean, we all know that a physics grad student (figuratively) stood in front of the Kansas school board and created the myth of the FSM. And those of us (me included) who are emotionally removed from the matter might very well say that this physics grad student is going to be the next Muhammad, once things die done and the exact nature of the beginning of FSM is forgotten. Just like the details of the life of Jesus had been forgotten when the Bible was written 200 years after he died. (Personally, I think the next deity will be Elvis. Seriously!)
Again though - personal beliefs are not about logic. Now, schoolboard rulings as to curriculum are about logic, but leadb's personal beliefs are not, and who the hell are we to say they should be? As long as he's not telling us that we must study creationism, which I don't believe he is.
Yes, creationism is BS. That's pretty clear. I'm not arguing for that at all. I'm just saying that maybe we oughta have some empathy towards those who've grown up with a system of beliefs, whose life experience has given that system meaning that goes beyond a letter written by a physics grad student.
And let me talk about the weight of history a minute...
Things that exist a long time have weight, and that defies logic. For example: I think in basic truths and personalities my parents aren't real compatible. But they've survived 40 years of marriage, and they've seen things of each other that no one else has or ever will. That gives their relationship something pretty damned special, and makes it more solid than any bluebirds and sparkles love at first site short-lived romance.
As much as I hate (and yes - I do mean HATE) a lot of what the Bible spews, I respect that it has a weight in some people's lives that defies whatever weak, pathetic roots the book might have, or how many insane passages there are about women sleeping with sheep and such. This thing has been in people's lives, it has carried them through horrible times and given them hope. That has weight.
Myself, I'd prefer if organized religion faded away completely, and if any schoolboard ever tells me I have to teach creationism but must never mention our almighty savior the Pasta Head, I'll by carrying signs and sending hate mail to the right-wing religous idiots. Creationism is bullshit, pure and simple. But I think this thread is toeing a line beyond that.
No matter the roots and fallacies of it, Christianity has more history, and more weight, than some 2 year old goofiness, no matter how clever and logically reasoned out FSM is.
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Quote:Which is all I've been trying to point out throughout
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Believe me, I'm with you on that! If we're going with logic, which every government official and schoolboard member and classroom textbook writer should, any system of beliefs is equal to any other. All are based on blind faith, and therefore are not provable. Not a single one has a place in the science curriculum. Period.
.Quote:There's nothing wrong with that, but religion's illogical nature is one reason why it's not science, and if the religious want it in Science class they're going to have to let anything in science class. As far as Scientific and Logical proofs for God go, they're as relevant and equivalent to my instance that I have an invisible friend named Harvey.
But here's the thing - religion is not about logic. And don't bust my balls (if I had them) over this - I'm as logical as they come. Scientist here. Atheist. Hardcore. See my posts here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29741
Quote:No one's asking them to believe in the FSM, but if they want to have their own beliefs respected, they'll have to do the same for other peoples proposed beliefs, even if they think them silly. Because, really when you look at it, belief in god is a little logically silly. Ignoring one's own thoughts feelings and beliefs for a moment, stepping back and looking at both Christianity and the FSM on their merits, they both look equally silly, and require the same leaps of logic to believe.
But I think you're stretching it to ask someone who's grown up with the Bible to honor the FSM the same way they honor the One True God, as they see it.
If a follower of Christianity can't let the FSMers do their own thing without getting upset, I fail to see how they'll be able to let Buddhists or Hindus do they're own thing, because those religions must look silly from outside too no? If they can't let other beliefs slide, even if they think they're silly and made up, why should theirs be respected? Because really, if your a Christian, yours is the true faith isn't it, therefore other peoples faith must be silly and made up.
Quote:Who's telling leadb what his beliefs are? The only time I saw anyone telling anyone what their beliefs are, was when leadb said all 'pastafarians' were lier's.
Again though - personal beliefs are not about logic. Now, schoolboard rulings as to curriculum are about logic, but leadb's personal beliefs are not, and who the hell are we to say they should be? As long as he's not telling us that we must study creationism, which I don't believe he is.
Quote:But to a Christian, they're belief will have more meaning than a book written by Muhammed, or the Bhagavad-Gītā, but why I should have empathy for Christians because Muslims and Hindus exist is beyond me. If they find the existence of other religions, even the parody insulting, how can they expect respect for their own beliefs?
Yes, creationism is BS. That's pretty clear. I'm not arguing for that at all. I'm just saying that maybe we oughta have some empathy towards those who've grown up with a system of beliefs, whose life experience has given that system meaning that goes beyond a letter written by a physics grad student.
Quote:Not in a logical argument, where that would be called a logical fallacy as an appeal to tradition.
And let me talk about the weight of history a minute...
Things that exist a long time have weight, and that defies logic.
Quote:It only has more weight to the believers of Christianity, it has no more logical worth, even if it was a million years old. But it will always have more weight than other beliefs to its believers. You're argument invites the conclusion that Christianity has more weight than Islam, wh
No matter the roots and fallacies of it, Christianity has more history, and more weight, than some 2 year old goofiness, no matter how clever and logically reasoned out FSM is.
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Citizen, I agree with everything in your last post. Like I said myself, in the debate over creationism taught in schools, the FSM and creationism are equal. Equally unfounded in reality. OK, can we check that off as done now, and quit trying to convince each other of it? 
This is where the thread went into a gray area for me:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:But that's as valid a thing to say as "all Christians are lying, and don't really believe in god".
Originally posted by leadb:
I'm sure if I challenge those FSM'ers, they will hold to their statement of belief as firmly as any Christian; but it does not change the fact the FSM'ers are lying, IMHO.
Not so. If you take a lie detector test to folks on both sides, guess how many creationists would pass as truly believing in their Creator? A lot more than FSM-ers who truly believe in the Noodly King. The Bible myth has had time to become personal, and a person's belief is more than logic. Of course, as you say I can't see into people's heads and until I get my own lie detector I'm only hand-waving here. But I don't think it's a stretch to say that more folks believe in God than believe in the FSM.
But that's not really my point. What's my point? Hmm. Something about different mentalities...
OK, I think we could make 4 groups here:
1. People who believe in the principle behind FSM, that all belief systems are (il)-logically equal and public policy should be set accordingly, but don't really think there's an actual pasta king running the show.
2. People who believe that the FSM is real, from eyeball to every loving noodly stub, and FSM-ism should be taught because it is the truth.
3. People who believe in the principles behind the Bible, like Love Thy Neighbor and Don't Sin and Do Unto Others and such, but don't really think there's an old man in robes who made the world in 7 days.
4. People who believe that the Bible God is real, and creationism should be taught because it is the truth. (And damn the evidence to the contrary LOL!)
I argue that 1 and 3 are similar mentalities, as are 2 and 4. Further, I think the majority of the people taking part in the FSM debate fall into 1 and 4.
I gently posit that both leadb and you are not making a distinction between 1 and 2. To leadb, FSM-ers are lying every time we bring up the FSM, because he may think we are arguing for the existence of this silly deity, and not the principle behind it. The thing that bugged me about this thread is that you seemed to be playing into that, and placing yourself in group 2. Which effectively takes you down to the dogmatic level of those in group 4, and loses sight of the whole point.
1 versus 4 is a stronger and more useful debate than 2 versus 4, is all I'm saying. (I think people in 3 probably line up pretty well with those in 1, btw.)
(edited for clarity)
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I knew I should have ducked after that last post.
Quote:Then do so; but be prepared to pay the price (ref: means and ends thread).
Originally posted by citizen:
Leadb seems to be suggesting that he can always say a 'pastafarian' is lying. Personally I think if you can say "all pastafarians are lying", I can say "All Christians are lying".
Quote:I don't tell them what to believe; I am calling a spade a spade. Big difference.
I have no right to tell anyone else what they believe, and neither does anyone else.
Someone above asked 'what's the price'. I'll quote Cit again "It's more believable than Scientology," Unfortunately, he's right. One of the possible prices we may pay is folks actually believing this at some point. At which time, I will have to change my position to 'It originated with a lie.'
A second possible cost is uniting the various Christians sects to 'fight back' against this 'argument'. At the moment, the fundamentalists are a bit 'out on the end of a branch' busy sawing away at the end closer to the tree. You tick enough folks off, and they just might come in to the defense of the very practice you all are trying to discourage.
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Mal said: " Citizen, I agree with everything in your last post. Like I said myself, in the debate over creationism taught in schools, the FSM and creationism are equal. Equally unfounded in reality."
With this part... "in the debate over creationism taught in schools, the FSM and creationism are equal. Equally unfounded in reality."
Also agreed.
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Well, I am not a religious scholar, but I am religious. I believe in Jesus/Intelligent Design, AND I subscribe to the evolutionary theory (albeit not in the conventional way).
Having said that, I cannot see how teaching any religion, be it Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Zen, Intelligent Design, or the FSM has any place in a public school funded by taxpayers.
Science class should be for teaching the scientific method and the consensus of the body of knowledge gathered by the scientific method. Not everything we believe we know in the scientific community is correct or true, but our children need to know what most people believe, even if they choose to personally disagree.
For example, my kid is learning about HIV as the cause of AIDS and global warming. I personally subscribe to neither of those theories, but I teach it to her because she needs to know what other people are talking about. That is what science class is for. Then, parents at home can present alternative theories/explanations (if they wish) to help the child arrive at his/her own conclusion.
That's my opinion anyway.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky 
Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
For example, my kid is learning about HIV as the cause of AIDS...
Huh? What alternate theory is there?
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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