And now for something completely different
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 19:14
VIEWED: 15117
PAGE 3 of 14
Quote:Ok, I don't mind the occasional Ad Hominem, it is sometimes necessary.
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:I asked how it was a strawman. This isn't an argument. How do you -know- it was constructed as a strawman (it wasn't but lets run with that?).
Originally posted by leadb:
Cit:
I -know- that FSM is constructed as a strawman. Do you know that FSM was constructed as a strawman, or do you know or believe something different?
A strawman argument is one you can tell by the logical construction of the agument, you don't need to know about the motivations of the source. You haven't told me why it's a Strawman, just that the people who constructed it, constructed it as one. That's an Ad Hominem. You're refuting the argument by attacking the source.
I've been trying to find a way to put into concrete terms the difference between merely being wrong, and putting up a deliberately false argument; and perhaps strawman is the wrong technical term. For the example below, I've chosen something 'provable' to make my point; unfortunately in the case of the FSM vs Abrahamic god we don't have that luxury.
I have persona A and person B.
Person B walks up to a yellow sign, and says 'This sign is green.' I see the sign is yellow; I observe this to the person, and he says, 'Nope, it is green!'. I find this interesting and ponder it.
Person A walks up to a red sign, and says 'This sign is purple.' I see the sign is red; I observe this to the person, and he says, 'Nope, it is purple!'. I hook him up to a lie detector, and sure enough, it shows he's telling the truth.
I hunt down person B. I hook him up to a lie detector, and sure enough, it shows he's lying. I ask why he's lying, he says "I'm so sick of that person A claiming the stops signs are purple, I just wanted to show you how wrong he is about calling those stop signs purple by calling these signs green."
Frankly, the FSM are person B. They are lying; they know they are lying. They know I know they are lying. I appreciate they are trying to 'make a point.' They are lying about the FSM. Simply because they are lying, does not mean the folks supporting Abrahamic god are lying. It also doesn't mean they are presenting a position which reflects reality; however, I will -not- say they are person A in the above analogy. That is equally unfair. I will say that the position existence of the Abrahamic God is 'indeterminate.'
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What I think you're doing is judging what yout think is the 'internal' quality of the belief as opposed to its expression.
I could probably point out many who claim to believe in an Abrahamic god who are merely using a culturally acceptable belief to advance their own agenda (Cheney comes to mind). Yet that doesn't detract from the overall 'quality' you assign to the belief. OTOH there are probably at least a few people who have chosen the FSM for real belief. Yet that doesn't improve the overall quality of the belief in your mind.
Personally, I think that the origins are irrelevant. What counts is the belief quality, and as long as there are people who claim to believe, it is a real belief system. IMHO.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Rue,
I'm sure if I challenge those FSM'ers, they will hold to their statement of belief as firmly as any Christian; but it does not change the fact the FSM'ers are lying, IMHO.
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Quote:It appears you got to me before my edit, sorry.
Originally posted by leadb:
Ok, I don't mind the occasional Ad Hominem, it is sometimes necessary.
Anyway, what you've actually done is strawman the FSM argument. The FSM was not brought about to argue against religion, or to highlight the 'lie of god' or anything the like. It was constructed to be an argument as equally logically and scientifically valid as any religion, and to say "if you want to teach Christian creation in science class, you have to teach any creation myth because they're all equally valid".
The arguments for the colour of the signs are both equally valid, they have the same amount of logical and evidential basis, the arguments are equally valid and it really doesn't matter that one person knows they're lying and the other thinks they're telling the truth. To put it another way, if I have a problem that makes me perceive the sky as red, yet say "the sky is blue", and another person who perceives it as blue says "the sky is blue", what makes the statements themselves different? Why is the sentence "the sky is blue" different from the sentence "the sky is blue", because of my motivations? They're not, the validity of the statement is independent of the person making it.
The thing about an Ad Hominem is that it is a logical fallacy, just like a strawman, and so is always an invalid argument. It doesn't matter why the originators constructed the argument.
How do you know the people who started the Christian religion were on the level? Does the arguments for god change if Pope Paul or Jesus were lying through their teeth or believed every word they said? No, because the motivations of the source are irrelevant to the validity of the argument. At the end of the day, you can't say for certain that the origins of the Christian religion are any more concrete than the FSMs, just further removed in history.
To boil it down significantly, you've got one group that says there's an invisible intelligent god that created the universe, and another group says that there is an invisible intelligent creator that created the universe. I see no difference in the fundamentals of the two positions, and find the motivations of both to be entirely irrelevant.
To summarise (because I feel I've gotten a little too 'stream of conciousness'):
Saying the FSM is invalid because it's proponents are 'lying and know it', is as valid, or invalid, as me refuting Christianity because I think the Catholic Church is lying.
Edited to add summary.
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Quote:But that's as valid a thing to say as "all Christians are lying, and don't really believe in god".
Originally posted by leadb:
Rue,
I'm sure if I challenge those FSM'ers, they will hold to their statement of belief as firmly as any Christian; but it does not change the fact the FSM'ers are lying, IMHO.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I'd like to finish my analogy above...
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:It appears you got to me before my edit, sorry.
Originally posted by leadb:
Ok, I don't mind the occasional Ad Hominem, it is sometimes necessary.
Anyway, what you've actually done is strawman the FSM argument. The FSM was not brought about to argue against religion, or to highlight the 'lie of god' or anything the like. It was constructed to be an argument as equally logically and scientifically valid as any religion, and to say "if you want to teach Christian creation in science class, you have to teach any creation myth because they're all equally valid".
...
To summarise (because I feel I've gotten a little too 'stream of conciousness'):
Saying the FSM is invalid because it's proponents are 'lying and know it', is as valid, or invalid, as me refuting Christianity because I think the Catholic Church is lying.
Edited to add summary.
Here's one reason I didn't claim the Abrahamic believers are person A.
Turns out that I and person B only have 'average' color vision. The town in question bought a bunch of cheap chinese stop signs, and the paint they used actually tests 'purplish' when put through testing with rather expensive equipement. Thus Person B was in fact correct in his assertion the signs were purple. He just happens to have 'superior' color vision. Without this persons' vigilant instance in holding to his position, the cheap signs would never have been idenitified!
Point: When one takes as a legitimate position of those who are lying and compares it to a position which is presented by folks who are just trying to be has honest as possible, one can miss important truths. Hence, 'not equally invalid'.
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Quote:I'm sorry, but characterising an Ad Hominem as a fatally flawed and invalid argument is not merely my 'opinion'. Your argument is as valid as me saying "Christians are lying". It doesn't address the actual issue, and merely tries to deflect it.
Originally posted by leadb:
You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I'd like to finish my analogy above...
Here's one reason I didn't claim the Abrahamic believers are person A.
Turns out that I and person B only have 'average' color vision. The town in question bought a bunch of cheap chinese stop signs, and the paint they used actually tests 'purplish' when put through testing with rather expensive equipement. Thus Person B was in fact correct in his assertion the signs were purple. He just happens to have 'superior' color vision. Without this persons' vigilant instance in holding to his position, the cheap signs would never have been idenitified!
Point: When one takes as a legitimate position of those who are lying and compares it to a position which is presented by folks who are just trying to be has honest as possible, one can miss important truths. Hence, 'not equally invalid'.
You're analogy could also end with Person B being correct and Person A being wrong. Point: The motivations of the arguer do not change the validity of their argument.
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Quote:BTW, I'm not talking about motivations of people, or anything else. Merely the logical validity of the two arguments, and they're both equally logically valid. The merits of arguers do not determine the logical validity of an argument, the merits of the argument do. Who is making the argument, is not a merit of the argument itself.
Originally posted by leadb:
Hence, 'not equally invalid'.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Almost every religion in the world has a creation myth, some similar to the Christian one and some very different. You could argue that if one is valid in the classroom then they should all be, because deciding which one is "real" becomes a value judgement, not one that is based on any evidence one way or the other. I went to a C of E secondary school, I had 2 hours of mandated religious education every week. They actually took the time to teach a little comparative theology during that time not because Anglicans believe they are wrong but because if you believe you are right you don't fear other ideas.
Oh, and they taught evolution. Science is about explaining how the universe works, religion is about explaining why there is a universe at all.
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Quote:Unless, of course, one person is lying, and the other person is telling the truth; but is able to perceive that which you cannot.
Originally posted by citizen:
You're analogy could also end with Person B being correct and Person A being wrong. Point: The motivations of the arguer do not change the validity of their argument.
Your point is probably 'but I can't tell who is lying and who is telling the truth.' I understand.
Much of all of this started from Christians trying to get their religious beliefs permitted into the public school systems on the grounds of fallacious arguments attempting to depict religious positions 'masked' as science. I consider this wrong; but find it is better to attack the science than the religion. FSM is an attack against the religion, not the science. If you want a really ugly fight, keep going down this path. But you can only get so far with a lie.
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