Heroes 2.1 (or wherever...)
POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 21:57
VIEWED: 15659
PAGE 8 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Actually the logic is fine. You said it yourself. He has to think about phasing in order for it to work. The writers have already made that case. The story the writers wanted to tell was one in which he dies, which I think is a far more compelling story then one in which he narrowing misses every danger thrown at him.
The logic doesn't work because we had just seen him avoid an attack with even less time to think or respond. You keep ignoring that bit.
Sure, I see that they needed him to die, but it's lazy writing for his power to just inconveniently not kick in just because they need to get rid of him. If they wanted him to get shot and die, they had that opprotunity already. He had a reason to take the bullet from Linderman - they could have just carried that through to conclusion. Or they could have come up with a way to kill him that was consistant with what was already presented.
Instead, they had his power not work simply for story convenience, which is poor writing. Plus, it's repetitive (that being the 3rd time he was shot in 5 months of story-line), which makes it feel even more lazy.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Hey I'm just sad he's gone... I do think he was focused on the possibility of attack when he was hit( most guys interrupting a couple dancing to pull the girl away expect physical attack of some kind) and he likely didn't think the guy would really pull the trigger right there in front of tons of witnesses ( who does that anyway) over a girl walking away. So he probably didn't realize until too late that the man was pulling the trigger. It's not that he didn't see the danger, it's that he didn't believe the threat was credible. He probably thought he was going to have to talk the guy down or something... of course this is jut my opinion and all.
____________________________________________
Nope, don't use cologne. Women I date think the smell of sawdust is sexy. That's probably why I don't... date many women.- Gibbs
You start talking about capes and tights and I'm out of here. -Ando Masahashi
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Quote:I realize that you don’t like the way this played out, but you can’t call it illogical. What you’re claiming is actually illogical. It’s a false cause fallacy. You claim that because he had previously phased a punch that he must therefore phase a gunshot, but that’s illogical, because the writers already made the case that if he’s caught off guard he can get shot. I think the writers did a good job with this. Now granted, it could use some fleshing out to make things more clear, but that’s not a problem with the events per se - that’s a problem with the overloaded cast. There are too many stories to tell in 45 minutes.
Originally posted by Storymark:
The logic doesn't work because we had just seen him avoid an attack with even less time to think or respond. You keep ignoring that bit.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:I realize that you don’t like the way this played out, but you can’t call it illogical. What you’re claiming is actually illogical. It’s a false cause fallacy. You claim that because he had previously phased a punch that he must therefore phase a gunshot, but that’s illogical, because the writers already made the case that if he’s caught off guard he can get shot. I think the writers did a good job with this. Now granted, it could use some fleshing out to make things more clear, but that’s not a problem with the events per se - that’s a problem with the overloaded cast. There are too many stories to tell in 45 minutes.
Originally posted by Storymark:
The logic doesn't work because we had just seen him avoid an attack with even less time to think or respond. You keep ignoring that bit.
It's a fallacy that because he is able to do something once, he should be able to do it again 5 mintes later?
Explain to me then, how he was caught off-guard by a guy walking up, making eye contact, scowling at him, pulling a gun and (I keep having to repeat this) reaching out to put it against DL, pausing, and then firing(as opposed to firing instantly, in which case I could buy his being surprised), and yet not caught off guard by the punch thrown, from behind Nikki, in a darkened room, with many more people around, when DL's attention was on Nikki?
Sorry, but throw down whatever debat-team jargon you like - it just doesn't hold to the story logic as it had already been established. Nothing you've said really supports the logic of events as presented.
I even re-watched it last night, to see if it was plausible. Bad writing, and bad editing. Nothing I see justifies it.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSB:
Hey I'm just sad he's gone... I do think he was focused on the possibility of attack when he was hit( most guys interrupting a couple dancing to pull the girl away expect physical attack of some kind) and he likely didn't think the guy would really pull the trigger right there in front of tons of witnesses ( who does that anyway) over a girl walking away. So he probably didn't realize until too late that the man was pulling the trigger. It's not that he didn't see the danger, it's that he didn't believe the threat was credible. He probably thought he was going to have to talk the guy down or something... of course this is jut my opinion and all.
____________________________________________
Nope, don't use cologne. Women I date think the smell of sawdust is sexy. That's probably why I don't... date many women.- Gibbs
You start talking about capes and tights and I'm out of here. -Ando Masahashi
That doesn't really fly for me, either. Even if he didn't really think the guy would pull the trigger - how stupid would he have to be to base his life on it?
On a show of this nature, there are plenty of ways to kill someone. Hell, if the guy had just come up behind DL, there would be no problem. But as it stands, I felt it was extremely sloppy.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:It‘s a fallacy to assume that he necessarily should, yes. You’re applying a lot of assumptions here. I’m not saying that the scene couldn’t have been expounded on, and you don’t have to like the way it played out, but I don't think you can call it illogical, cause it’s not.
Originally posted by Storymark:
It's a fallacy that because he is able to do something once, he should be able to do it again 5 mintes later?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Another Heroes thread? Man, I've got a buncha catchup reading to do.
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Okay, I'll drop the illogical (though I still think it violates story logic - perhaps not debate logic, but story logic - definitly), and just stick with poorly written.
If it works for you, cool. But I found it very, very sloppy, in an otherwise solid episode.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:I re-watched it last night too- and my feeling is that maybe he was phasing his head again for another punch or even bullet, but the attack came lower than expected- he didn't look completely unaware, just un-threatened...
Originally posted by Storymark:
I even re-watched it last night, to see if it was plausible. Bad writing, and bad editing. Nothing I see justifies it.
Could that be it? Chrisisall
Edit: but I would have edited it quicker anyway- I think they were trying to extend it as if to make a point that this was his last living moment.
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Quote:There are too many characters, and they can’t pay the kind of attention that every scene deserves when they’ve got five or six main character, each with different storylines. They tend to abbreviate scenes. This is a criticism. One that I’ve made in the past. But you’re making the assumption that DL saw it coming, except there’s nothing in the scene that suggest that, and you can’t extrapolate from previous phasing events. It would have been nice if there were a scene or two that cleared up exactly what DL was thinking or doing at the time, but I think the writers did a good job with what they could afford to put in.
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, I'll drop the illogical (though I still think it violates story logic - perhaps not debate logic, but story logic - definitly), and just stick with poorly written.
If it works for you, cool. But I found it very, very sloppy, in an otherwise solid episode.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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