Heart of Gold

POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Friday, December 7, 2007 01:10
VIEWED: 9175
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ASARIAN

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:

Too many people put too much importance on pain medication.

I dunno. Pain is scary. :) I'm more of a John Candy guy myself: "No pain... sounds good to me!" :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm not sure if you 2 are women, but I'm highly suspectin.

yep. Woman here. Not sure how that matters especially much.

Now, I know EMTs - of both flavors - who wouldn't be dawdling on the way to the hospital, no matter what the emergency. Sure as hell, no EMT should risk the life of the mother and baby just they can have a novel experience. I find it a little horrifying that you know people who would.

BTW - isn't there another cliche about men crying and having a big life change after witnessing childbirth? Who are these men you know who are so horrified by it? Sounds like you're living in the cliche of women being ruled by their emotions, and men ruled by practicality. Obviously, you don't live in *my* world!

Yeah, as far as cliches go, there's a whole bunch of assumed behaviors that are often used as jokes. ie - men never ask for directions. Women binge on chocolate ice cream after a bad date. Men panic over childbirth. Women panic over changing the oil in their car. Men have meaningless sex and that's a *score*. Women have meaningless sex and that's confusing - don't they want more from life? (this is for Jongstraw...) And maybe if we did a study we'd find these behaviors are true of a majority of men/women. Or maybe we wouldn't, cause very few of these things apply to me, or the people I know.

And actually, whether the panic thing is true of most men or not is beside the point. The thing is - this joke is old. It's been done and done and done. To death. Every damned sitcom involving childbirth has the big manyly man going all jelly while the canned laughter plays in the background. And maybe that's because it's a joke that works for a majority of viewers over and over again, but material like that is not what pulls me into Firefly. If I wanted trite cliche jokes, I'll watch everything else on TV.

So, yeah, I expect more of Firefly. At the very least, I expect Mal to panic in a novel way. Example: MIB. The pregnant alien lady in the car - Will Smith does the stereotypical male panic, but then it plays out in a new way which I find quite entertaining. The FF writers may not have had the alien card to play, but I'm sure they could have had Mal say or do something original. His behavior and lines in that bit of HoG are soooo stale.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

MERRYK

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 4:25 PM

Now see, I think it was less a joke and more an exploration of Mal's character. I think it's clear that he's uncomfortable with open relationships...that is, he can be affectionate or have relationships, just not show them, and he doesn't want others to do that either. He's very uncomfortable with Simon and River, and I don't think it's because they're fugitives. He is equally uncomfortable with Wash and Zoe, and even told Zoe not to marry Wash. He's uncomfortable with Jayne's views on relationships, and also Inara's. The only relationship he didn't freak out over was Kaylee and Simon in the bar at Jaynestown...which I would think he'd at least look a little upset about. He has a problem with family and relationships.

Anyway, when it comes to the childbirth, I think it's his intimacy issues coming to the front again. Notice that Wash, Book, and Jayne don't go all panicky, and Simon is cool as a cucumber about it all. It's just Mal. Here is another evidence of relationship, of family, of something he can't really grasp a hold of himself. It's not the childbirth itself, it's motherhood.

That's my take, anyway.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.

Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!

Too many people put too much importance on pain medication. I am not saying that pain medication does not have a place, but in my opinion too many people are taking way too many pain medications instead of looking for alternate and healthier ways of pain management.

But I'm sure you agree that it should be a choice everyone gets to make for themselves, and not have it dictated by someone else's need to run your painful birth process, right?

I know many women who are all about "experiencing the pain of childbirth", going so far as to say "Why would you want children if you can't take the pain of childbirth?", which is so many levels beyond offensive and ridiculous, I don't know what to say to that.

I'm a big fan of pain meds. And modern medicine in general. Nature is not perfect, it's only as imperfect as it got away with back in times of natural selection, so I feel free to interfere with the parts that have me keening and whimpering and curled up fetal-wise.

But still, power to those who choose other paths, as well. It's the choice that matters and people taking it away, that's what riles me up madly.

RALLEM

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.

Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!

Too many people put too much importance on pain medication. I am not saying that pain medication does not have a place, but in my opinion too many people are taking way too many pain medications instead of looking for alternate and healthier ways of pain management.

But I'm sure you agree that it should be a choice everyone gets to make for themselves, and not have it dictated by someone else's need to run your painful birth process, right?

I know many women who are all about "experiencing the pain of childbirth", going so far as to say "Why would you want children if you can't take the pain of childbirth?", which is so many levels beyond offensive and ridiculous, I don't know what to say to that.

I'm a big fan of pain meds. And modern medicine in general. Nature is not perfect, it's only as imperfect as it got away with back in times of natural selection, so I feel free to interfere with the parts that have me keening and whimpering and curled up fetal-wise.

But still, power to those who choose other paths, as well. It's the choice that matters and people taking it away, that's what riles me up madly.

AGENTROUKA
Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 08:05

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
They want the birth to occur in their care, like as if they're midwives. It's cute, gloriuous, defining moment in a woman's life, blah blah blah. It's a women thing. All the men want to get to the Hospital as fast as possible so the birth does not occur in their presence. They are all trained to perform delivery, but they do not want to do it if avoidable. The female EMTs tend towards wanting to perform the task.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't that scarily selfish of them, considering they probably don't have all the pain meds on them that hospital staff would have?

I'm honestly freaked out!

People should have the choice, but I also believe that choice should be an informed choice and people should go through a form of Lamaze training which highlights various forms of pain management lessons. I am a man, and I have been forced tolive with pain every since January of 1986 when I fell 50' from a cliff in Colmar France, but I have to say yhtat I think that is nothing compared to a friend of mine who suffers from Trigeminal neuralgia which is called the suicide nerve. As a child I was scared of pain and refused to give an honest effort to catching the ball in kickball becasue of the slap and raspberry the ball would sometimes give, but then one day I caught the ball and received the raspberry on my face. The pain was not so bad and went away and from that time on I no longer fear pain.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, November 14, 2007 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:

People should have the choice, but I also believe that choice should be an informed choice and people should go through a form of Lamaze training which highlights various forms of pain management lessons.

I'm glad we agree, then. :)

I do, however, think that there is a very big difference between types of pain, how the body deals with each and what helps where.

Birth pain is very different from chronic pain from injury or illness, though I imagine each can be at equal levels.

Birth pain isn't the kind that "won't be so bad" once you try it, at least not for all women. Not for many,judging by how popular pain meds are.

Similarly, chronic pain doesn't have an assured ending to it like childbirth does, and needs a long-term strategy to deal with it and its effects on the body.

As with everything, informed choices are the key, like you say.

NBZ

Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:04 AM

while I am finding the discussion of pain and child bearing riveting, I'll jump back a little. (sorry about ignoring AgentRourka, Merryk and others posts, they had some good meat in them that I really am interested by...)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Hmm. But I'm failing to see what storyline purpose it would serve to have Mal faking Inara out in that little bit.

Not "faking out". Real emotion used in a calculated manner.

I do not think he is too suspicious of Inara's motives (apart from in Trash... Wiles and all that are like some sort of magic...), just Inara wanted to stay with the rest, and he had other ideas. he showed that he cares, she backed down. Was it real? yes. Was it spontaneous? probably. Was it manipulative? I think so.

Quote:
OK, I looked at the script and see that Simon's line originally said "Boros."

I have no idea where I was going with that in relation to this discussion either.

Quote:
Quote:
You know how he panicks when that womans water broke?
OMG! Another not so good moment. And his whole - "It's time. Oh! It's time! *panics*" Soooo stupid. I didn't even find that funny the first time I saw it. So cliche.

Something we can totally agree on.

Quote:
Hmm, okay. I don't disagree at all, I'm just not seeing the relevance.

Just waffle mostly. line of thought got types instead of thought.. and not very well. It was an attempt to say that Mal has erm... "reacts differently" is probably the best way to put it. He gives himself a chance for thought. A deliberateness that makes the mishaps even funnier.

Quote:
I agree that he's deadened and he holds back his natural reactions, but I don't see it as calculated as much as survival mechanism. Meaning, it's not consciously done. I don't think he calculates purely to manipulate people, but to defend himself.

Ofcourse. Not everything is conscious, or has too much thought behind it.

Quote:
JEWELSTAITEFAN wrote:
Also, I don't think Mal calculates for defense or manipulation of others. He does it to maintain effectiveness. Logical, effective thought is inhibited by emotion, which blinds the mind. To keep his wits about him, he has learned to absorb the emotion in the instantaneous situation - emeotion can be dealt with later. But if you're dead, you helped nobody.

Put way better than I ever could.

Quote:
MAL4PREZ wrote:
A-ha! I just put on the Serenity the Pilot commentary. Joss says as Mal pushes Inara's shoulder: "Important moment! Originally, this is the first time you [Mal] made it very clear how much you care about her..." (Trying to be good and not stick out my tongue... LOL!)

So do I have to distribute humble pie? (Grown ups are allowed to stick their tongues out. Atleast that is what I will tell everyone.)

in my defence, I am not trying to suggest that it was all faked emotion. just that he chose to show it for convenience rather than being overwhelmed.

RALLEM

Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:39 AM

In "Heart of Gold," there were several wooden buildings in the design of the old west but yet there were very few trees if any on world, so how did the settlers get their lumber? Wouldn’t it have been easier to bring their own prefabricated futuristic material buildings to save on weight rather than hauling lumber? Actually this phenomenon is quite common in most of the outer worlds and moons that had buildings.

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:44 AM

read the whole thread with delight.

i don't think the relationship or not with inara will ever be clear - but the commentaries make it plain they were building in the 'chemistry' and i DO find their scenes quite moving... and her leaving arc is astute - i don't see her coming back.

JEWELSTAITEFAN - it's interesting to compare the 'waters' scene with the same one in Angel, when Darla floods the back of the car. Only Wesley panics (because it's funny) - and not overly.

NBZ - 'parodymal' i agree. but it is on occasion hi-larious.

Finallly - i'll throw this in.
WHO is the woman Mal is talking about just before gettin it on with Nandi?
SAFFRON.

Nandi. "I'm not her".

the fusion of Inara/Yos-Saff tickles me everytime.

and probably says a great deal about Mal.

or not so much.

LAWMAN

Friday, December 7, 2007 1:10 AM

I'm sure somebody did bring this up before about HOG. but last week, when i saw it again for the 11th time (i don't see this episode as much as the others), i really noticed something i never thought about before. before the local dudes attack the brothel, they have this big hell raising meeting in town. and when he tells the betrayer to get on her knees... i never noticed that scene all this time. not sure it added anything of particular importance to the plot line, but made him a really bad jerk. just never noticed it before...

everyone dies alone

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