Opinions about writing style

POSTED BY: Desertgirl
UPDATED: Thursday, October 25, 2007 21:36
VIEWED: 11769
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MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 15, 2007 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Seems I have a lot of bad habits, reading over this post.

Hey - I like present tense too! And foreshadowing.

Quote:
I have no excuses for the puns, though. Sorry.

Excuses for puns? Who needs to make excuses for puns?

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MOBBEX

Monday, October 15, 2007 9:09 PM

Thanks people, that definitely shed some light on the matter. Fantastic thred, by the way. It's going to take a while for me to take it all in

PS: Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I just got out of bed

DESERTGIRL

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 5:13 AM

Oh my - I go to work for the day and so much happens on this very fine thread. Great work people.

I have to say I have become a big fan of writing in one POV at a time. Like M4Prez said it adds color and complexity to a scene. It also is more challenging for the author, which is fun.

I think one of the issues is that we are trying to use one media (fiction) to extend a completely different media (television). In books authors tend to stick with one POV for the entire book, or they will switch POV between a small numbers of characters at the beginning of a chapter, which doesn’t seem weird because a chapter is a break.

In television, the camera goes from person to person, and we are not in anyone’s POV. We get the introspection visually by the actions and expressions of the characters. In television, breaks come for dramatic emphasis, so we will not change the channel, rather than to switch the scene.

Good fan fic authors are able to navigate the mix of these two media. I like limiting my switch of POV, but switch when I need to. I also prefer to make it real obvious that it is a new scene with some fancy asterisks. And I am a big fan of dramatic chapter endings, to keep readers coming back.

I like using introspection to give us some of the visual clues that we are missing because we are reading and not watching.

This can get very fun when you are trying to stay in one POV

For example:

There she sat alone at the edge of the couch. Mal wondered if her stomach hurt as much as his did. He just couldn’t imagine Inara would drink so much as to get sick, but there she was, looking rather green around the edges.

As far as foreshadowing goes, I believe the trick is to not let your reader know what you are doing is foreshadowing.

For example in Harry Potter we don’t think any thing of it when Hermione is asked about a Bezor in book one, and she tells Snape that it is a stone that is an antidote for most poisons, in book 1. Later in book 4, after Harry uses a Bezor to save Ron’s life, he says he never would have known about it if not for his great book. The Hemione reminds him of Snape asking her about it in book one.

Did I know reading book 1 that someone would be saved by Bezor, not so much; I though the scene was describing what a jerk Snape was. Reading Book 4 I realized I should have.

Oops wrong fandom…..

I once had a creative writing teacher tell me ever scene should have a purpose, sometimes we just don’t realize what that purpose is till later.

Lastly because this response is way way to long.

Spaceangl – did someone really dis writing in the present tense? I must have missed it.

I hope you do not think when I said ‘have characters do something rather than tell us what they are doing,’ I meant don’t write in the present tense. If anything what I meant is do write in the present, rather than as a story teller, spinning yarns around a campfire about some distant event.

And I am big fan of puns – especially around Jayne or Wash

Ok have blabbed enough, at least for this evening.

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:55 AM

Agree with you on the use of foreshadowing in the Potter books (Just discovered I have one of the rare first editions of HP:PS! Woo!) There's so much hidden away in earlier books that makes you suddenly think 'er...what?!' later on. (Still can't cope with that epilogue though - barf central.)

Action fiction needs a dynamic style to make it flow. Short, choppy sentences, move the POV swiftly between characters, keep it fast and tight.

But you can take your time over personal thoughts and become a little more lyrical. You can expand your sentences, and add a few more adjectives. The prose style can become more descriptive, even poetic, slowing the pace of the reading down to match the observation of introspection.

Every book ever written has tried to show the world what the author was seeing on the back of their eyelids. (Some of the Victorian authors were paid by the word for serialisation purposes, hence the turgid and verbose style.)

DESERTGIRL

Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
[

Every book ever written has tried to show the world what the author was seeing on the back of their eyelids.

Exactly, the point of this thread is to get people to share some of the secrets great authors use to show the picture with out the words getting in the way.

Quote:

(Some of the Victorian authors were paid by the word for serialisation purposes, hence the turgid and verbose style.)

Seriously I had no idea. I thought it was a time period thing.

Thanks for the input

MERRYK

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 3:11 AM

How about getting a little deeper into dialogue...

Obviously, a good fanfic writer could bring across a conversation perfectly well by using just the words and nothing else. Characters have different styles of speaking, and tone could be indicated by people's responses just like in real life. Just as a short rather silly example:

"Sure, Mal, I think you're doing great here."
"Now really, why does everyone seem to think that the blame belongs on me?"

You hear the sarcasm in the first line without being told that the tone was sarcastic, and the frustration in the latter line, right? Knowing a character and their mannerisms and intonation well can make modifiers on dialogue superfluous.

BUT, there's definitely something to be said for modifiers, since dialogue is often tricky. Not too much, because that can sound forced. Also not always using "he said" and "she said". I try for a 50/50 ratio of "saids" and synonyms of "said" and modified "saids".

What about modifiers of other sorts? I don't like dialogue that looks like chunk after chunk of descriptive/introspective text with short quotes in between. I like finding out what characters are doing and/or thinking during conversation...but not when the pace of the conversation is lost.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 3:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Obviously, a good fanfic writer could bring across a conversation perfectly well by using just the words and nothing else.

Hmm. I think this is okay in fanfic because we all know the characters so well, and the personalities and mannerisms are solidly established. Your example works because we all know Mal's voice and general attitude. But if you were writing for a newbie who hadn't seen the show, they might read Mal's response as whiny rather than frustrated.

I definitely agree with the pace issue - too much description loses the thread of the conversation, and that's no fun! But I think something is missing in dialogue if there's nothing given as to body language, facial expression, and tone of voice. I mean, look at Jayne's: "Well, I might." (as in - survive the Reaver stand-off in the BDM) It that's written on a blank piece of paper, it's nothing. But the way he says it with that half shrug thing is fantastic.

And, of course, just about any line Nathan delivers has a wealth of meaning in his face and body that goes way beyond the words. OK, it's impossible to express all that subtlety in prose, but I think it's worth the effort to try, or Mal's complexity can get lost.

In my first fic, I had an exchange between Mal and Zoe that was several short lines. I imagined it happening bam-bam-bam, with that rhythm they have, so I wrote it as nothing but dialogue. For like 20 lines or something. My beta suggested I throw in a few actions to break it up, which at first bugged me. But I think it really helped. It added pauses in the rhythm and kept the scene visual, and also showed Mal's varying state of awareness. (Um... I don't believe my gall, but if you really care, I'm talking about the very first scene here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=7250)

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MERRYK

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 3:41 PM

Yeah, I have a really hard time writing the Firefly characters because they were so well acted. Especially Simon and Zoe, because their looks and tones are too subtle for, say, "in a sarcastic tone" to work, and yet I can exactly see how Gina Torres and Sean Maher would have given life to the words and made it work. River, too, was given such variety by Summer Glau. I try with just words, but I really wish I could transcribe the movie that I see and hear so clearly in my head.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:07 PM

Yeah, the more I write, the more I realize that I am completely unequal to River. I think I can write River-speak ok, but getting her half-insane and half-rational genius tone of voice, and the way she moves - not straight-up dancer but something like... it's impossible!

A-hem, back to the subject...

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WYTCHCROFT

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
I try with just words, but I really wish I could transcribe the movie that I see and hear so clearly in my head.

someone writes Shepherd Book like you... don't need to worry overly:)

But seriously - firstly i think it's just practise.. you find the voice then the dialogue... How does Mal order a burger and french fries? good question - guess i'll go write to find out...
A lot of slog. I'm still not convinced my dialogue is worth a hill of beans - but it's... better than it was - my first attempts at Mal made him sound like fracking Elvis (No offence there Boss! "Well, uh, that's ok then Son - you just do what you're doin uhuh and leave me to ma mess o'blues." ) it's an easy trap...

so i write a lot of voice stuff and keep my fingers crossed.

Prose aint tv - trying to novelise a daydream just doesn't work. One of Fillion's most supreme pieces of acting (From The Train Job) can be reduced to he narrowed his eyes

or in the grisly style of a novelisation:
Pain swept the features of Malcolm Reynolds - despite his best efforts to keep his face hard and unreadable... the visible pain of a man who knew he had unwittingly betrayed everything he stood for - Gorram! To steal something so vital from those who had so little left to lose - those he had fought for and with - who had been stood next to him when Serneity Valley fell - those who remembered the pride of the Independents and were now reduced to hacking out a living in the back of beyond, crippled by a disease that fell like the wrath of God - a disease whose only cure Captain Reynolds now held in his hands... because he had stolen it from them. yick!

so... back to dialogue - live with the characters a little (or, well, ok - actually, a lot) and let them TALK to you - then to each other. Try out different POVs on the same scene of talking... write letters from the characters - pretty soon you'll find it helps make things a little more natural. atleast that's my PLAN!

aw crap, lke i'm qualified to talk about this kinda stuff... and since my next chapter is mostly dialogue i now have the FEAR!
(adopts Ilyria stance "I wish to do more nicotine" and stomps off...)

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