Opinions about writing style
POSTED BY: Desertgirl
UPDATED: Thursday, October 25, 2007 21:36
VIEWED: 11769
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mobbex:
I have a not so simple question for you clever fellows
How do you avoid the overuse of personal pronouns? That's something that bugs me in other people's writing as well as in mine. I'm not a native english speaker, and I haven't had an english class since I graduated, so your imput would be most appreciated!
PS: I don't want to divert this thread from it's original purpose. If you believe that my question doesn't fit into it, tell me and I'll go make a thread of my own.
Mobbex - this is just the type of thing I think we should be discussing. In other words your not hijacking.
While I don't have a difinative answer for you, here's what I do.
Always use a name in the first sentance of the paragraph, whose name depends on who your describing or who's thinking or acting in the paragraph. After that it is ok to use a personal pronoun until another person is mentioned, then you have to go back to the name.
I have been known to switch it up a bit by inserting some visual discription instead of a name later in the paragraph or call them by their job, espcially if they are doing said job at the time. But read Reginaroadie's example how it can backfire, it is very good.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mobbex:
I have a not so simple question for you clever fellows
How do you avoid the overuse of personal pronouns? That's something that bugs me in other people's writing as well as in mine. I'm not a native english speaker, and I haven't had an english class since I graduated, so your imput would be most appreciated!
PS: I don't want to divert this thread from it's original purpose. If you believe that my question doesn't fit into it, tell me and I'll go make a thread of my own.
It's really a question of writing style, stupid as that sounds.
I think a good first step is to try and avoid the whole "..," she said. thing to begin with. Incorporate dialogue without announcing it.
Put some distance between the name/pronoun and the dialogue by describing what they are doing while they speak, or what they feel while speaking.
Short and probably inadequate example:
-- It was gun cleaning day, and once again Mal was cleaning his guns until a shimmering dress in the doorway broke his concentration.
"Do something for you, 'Nara?" He didn't look up, just kept wiping.
"Hardly."
The answer was nearly always the same, but harsher than usual, this time.
At the counter, Kaylee frowned. "Are you two fighting again?"
Inara sent her warmest smile across the room. "Aren't we always, mei mei?"
A snort was all Mal felt obliged to add. --
Names happen but they're not everywhere and no one needed to be described by their occupation. *shrug*
All this applies to omniscient POV, of course.
In single-character POV's, descriptors become more than a style question, they become a characterisation question, defining relationships between characters by how they label each other. More flexibility but also more responsibility.
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Fun thread! And you know I'm going to be all kinds opinionated about this LOL!
Quote:This is a hard one! My method is to first write a scene out poorly - the words don't matter, I just sort out all the actions and dialogue and position the people. Then I go back over again and again and again and possibly again to smooth out the writing. It's a bit of a puzzle sometimes, but if you stare at a sentence long enough, you'll find a way to arrange it that minimizes repetition. That may not be so helpful! I guess that important thing is just to recognize the problem in your own writing, and to not accept it. As long as that happens, you'll find a solution eventually (or get help from a beta...)
Originally posted by Mobbex:
How do you avoid the overuse of personal pronouns? That's something that bugs me in other people's writing as well as in mine. I'm not a native english speaker, and I haven't had an english class since I graduated, so your imput would be most appreciated!
Re the "he said" tags: when I first started writing, I tried to avoid these as I really hate repetition. But at some point I figured confusion is worse - I want to be clear as to who's speaking so the reader doesn't get tripped up. I figure that when I read dialogue my eyes pass right over the speaker tags except to note the identity of the speaker. So now I throw tags in a lot, just for clarity. Maybe more than I should. (And I'm totally guilty of using "doctor" "captain" etc... but I do try to use them when they fit the POV. I hope!)
Dialogue can be smoothed out by doing as AgentRouka says, which has the added bonus that she's describing the characters' body language and that makes the scene richer. Also, the tag can move around, so it's not always at the end of the quote. It can be used to put a pause in the speaker's phrasing as well. Speaking tags affect the rhythm, which I find useful.
But never put the tag at the end of a long quote! That bugs me to no end! I want to have the right voice in my head right away. It does me no good to have "Jayne said" after I've just read 3-4 lines of dialogue thinking it was Mal. And if I've figured out that it was Jayne speaking, the little "Jayne said." at the end is useless anyway. My rule is that the tag should come in the first sentence of dialogue.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Writing dialogue is the most tricky thing, I find, and not just finding the right voice. I like Agentrouka's style, because I've found that scenes where there's just dialogue (and maybe a he said/she said) is distracting and feels unreal. Especially in this fandom, where the canon is visual and auditory...I like to add in sensory details to give it more of a television feel, and also to portray character.
What are people's opinions about using internal thoughts in stories? I like to use thoughts in Firefly fanfic, but only rarely for most characters...I almost never use them for Kaylee or Jayne, because their dialogue speaks for itself 99.9% of the time, and rarely for Wash or River, because they also feel very open as characters, and fairly easy to read through other methods. For Mal and Simon, though, I think those scenes are most effective at character building, and reveal a lot. Instead of saying that Simon feels uncomfortable around Mal, for instance, I have him think about Mal using the title "the Captain". Mal, also, has a lot going on inside his head, and I like to give a little insight into that. For Book and Inara, I use thoughts sparingly also, because they are mystery characters and, I think, should remain so.
I also use introspection scenes carefully...Book, Inara, Simon, and River, are all quiet thinkers, and would naturally introspect, in my opinion. Mal, however, seems to live on the surface mostly, even though you know there has to be more underneath, and so having him think about himself would seem out of place in my opinion. Zoe might introspect...but I'm not sure. And the others, especially because they are so outgoing and open, would definitely not, unless it was a very odd circumstance.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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So... introspection.
A big part of single POV fiction (which is all I write) is the POV character's inner life, his or her thoughts about things. I use this plenty - don't get me wrong! Part of the fun of fiction is knowing the character's thoughts and observations.
But here's the thing: people don't always see things clearly, especially in the kind of traumatic situations which Firefly is full of. In fact, I think it's very rare that anyone, no matter how smart or mentally healthy they are, is ever perfectly aware of their own motivations, or is able to see what other people are thinking.
The writer certainly knows all the gory details and sees to the heart and soul of the characters. So the easy way to tell a story is to make the character aware to the same degree, so then he/she can spell it out for the reader. I find it more dramatic (but challenging as hell!) to describe a situation indirectly, without resorting to too many inner soliloquies that see and describe the truth bang on. I think it makes characters more human when they aren't even aware of why they do what they do, and when they don't "see into" the other characters in the scene, though the reader does.
I heard it said by a big name writer that drama comes from the reader knowing more than the character. So my big challenge is setting that up - how do I inform the reader of things the character doesn't know and can't see? It's damned hard I tell you! I'm stuck in a situation like this right now - I need to show the reader nuances of a conversation between a Companion and a politician, but the POV character is self-absorbed and not at all experienced with people. Grrr! So I need to either explain why the POV char is able to read a Companion, or I need to use some sleight of hand to fill the reader in... Honestly, I'm stuck!
Yeah, so I guess the pet peeve I'm getting to here is that fic writers tend to make the characters completely self-aware, which is too obvious and I think robs the story of it's drama. Ties back to what desertgirl said - telling what the characters are doing instead of showing.
Uh... the extension of this is stories where the POV shifts freely, telling what's in the head of every single character as it happens. I have no interest in that. Too obvious. Loses the dramatic edge.
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Great post, Mal4Prez! I love playing with the fact that characters are self-deluded, even though I may not always succeed. However, I do think that characters can sometimes understand themselves, or at least parts of themselves, because I know that people have done that in real life. A lot depends on what personality you have. I am constantly aware o the showing versus telling part of my writing, and one thing I use is false introspection...a character may think something about themselves that, hopefully, the reader will see is not exactly true. For instance, I have had Simon think that he understands where Mal is coming from, when really he has no clue.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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firstly - everybody (every character) intropsects sometimes!:)
it's a question of does it suit the character at that moment in that fic - and what would it reveal to the reader.
An internal monologue from YoSaffBrig might be witty and informative but risks spilling the beans on any chicanery!
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
But here's the thing: people don't always see things clearly, especially in the kind of traumatic situations which Firefly is full of.
I find it more dramatic (but challenging as hell!) to describe a situation indirectly, without resorting to too many inner soliloquies that see and describe the truth bang on.
don't have to be - could be bang OFF!:)
POV means just that - no reason for the character to be RIGHT in what they think. The very subjectivity and the flaws therein can make 'intropsction' interesting.
Quote:
I heard it said by a big name writer that drama comes from the reader knowing more than the character.
well sure, dramatic irony - that's valid as far as it goes - but there are many generic forms where this is not the case. Detective fiction, horror etc - and definitely individual characters in literature where that is also the case.
again - it's a quality of writing issue. An omniscient detective who reveals information concealed from the reader at the denoument is BAD. A detective who has their own agenda, priorities, issues and muddles that the reader has to sort through could be GOOD.
This applies to firefly as well - the characters should be able to surprise the reader... and not merely BE surprised themselves, by events.
Quote:
fic writers tend to make the characters completely self-aware, which is too obvious and I think robs the story of it's drama.
again it's a question of the use - and the degree of accuracy in the awareness. i dare say that Giles in Buffy is very self aware (TOO self aware even!) - but flawless he's not - and many plots have hinged on that friction.
Quote:
Uh... the extension of this is stories where the POV shifts freely, telling what's in the head of every single character as it happens. I have no interest in that. Too obvious. Loses the dramatic edge.
for me, again it depends on the quality of writing - and the inherent interest of the story. Objects in Space and Out of Gas use the visual equivalent at times after all.
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Thanks MerryK! 
Quote:Now, Wytchcroft, are you getting me wrong when I told you not to?
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
firstly - everybody (every character) intropsects sometimes!:)
(Sorry, I have to get sassy LOL!) I said I like hearing thoughts and such. And I think it can be done in a way that doesn't spill the beans. YSB can plot away without telling all. Detectives can keep their secrets. But I think there's a tendency for fic to overuse the sharing of thoughts and feelings. I think it comes from the community being more into storyline than the craft of writing (reference the fic rating thread). Quote:Indeed! This is exactly what I mean! I love it when they are wrong! But I don't see this level of irony in the majority of fic - characters so often seem so clear-eyed and perfectly self-aware. It makes them agents of the writer, instead of believable characters.
don't have to be - could be bang OFF!:)POV means just that - no reason for the character to be RIGHT in what they think. The very subjectivity and the flaws therein can make 'intropsction' interesting.
As to the shifting POV, here's an example of what I mean. There's all kind of fic that might go like:
"You can't just leave them to die!" Inara gasped in disbelief.
It angered Mal to have his leadership questioned. "Quit buggin' me!" he snapped, and he got up to leave the table so he wouldn't have to listen to this.
Kaylee hated to see people fight. "How's about we just cool down and think a minute?" she said hopefully.
Book leaned forward; he meant to have his say about the abandonment of innocents. Jayne just found it all funny. He sat quietly and eyed the pantry, thinking of all the food he'd have to himself if the doc and the moonbrain weren't around.
Ok - this is a perfectly reasonable scene. There's nothing wrong with it. But, IMHO, it's not that interesting. Of course, I say this as a writer who always uses single POV (I think single POV is like shaky handheld cams and the weird lenses Joss uses - puts the viewer/reader right into the scene.)
Anyhow, the bit above is *telling* us each character's state, instead of showing. Suppose instead I did this:
"You can't just leave them to die!" Inara gasped. She couldn't believe she was hearing this from Mal - he couldn't be such a hard man as to leave Simon and River stranded. Could he?
But Mal seemed in no mood to reassure. "Quit buggin' me!" he snapped, and he pushed his chair back and left the table. Inara knew by the set of his shoulders that she'd never get through to him.
But a soft, timid voice spoke up before he could step through the hatch. "How's about we just cool down and think a minute?" Kaylee asked hopefully.
Inara nodded her thanks to Kaylee, then looked to the rest of the crew for support. Book was sitting forward in his chair, appearing ready to jump to the Tam's defense. Jayne, however, was studying the pantry - the shelf that held River and Simon's food - and patting his belly thoughtfully.
OK, that's the same scene, but described from Inara's POV. You may disagree, but I think it has more immediacy and personality. We stay in Inara's emotional state, so aren't tugged around between angry Mal and timid Kaylee and covetous Jayne, etc... And there's more layers. We don't just get that Jayne is coveting the Tam's food, we get that Inara is seeing him do this. We see that she's aware of having allies in her argument with Mal.
Or:
Kaylee sank back into her chair, taken aback by how Inara was glaring at the captain.
"You can't just leave them to die!" Inara gasped.
"Quit buggin' me!" Mal snapped back, and he got up to leave the table.
Kaylee hated to fight like an engine hated a gummed up reg couple, but she couldn't just let this go. It was Simon and River they were talking about. "How's about we just cool down and think a minute?" she asked hopefully.
The captain stopped at the hatch and stood with his back to them for
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Seems I have a lot of bad habits, reading over this post. Shifting POV, a lot of untagged dialogue, a tendency to write in the present tense...Add in my penchant for playing with language, ramraiding the silver screen for sight gags, and love of twisty plots foreshadowed by cliffhanger endings to my chapters, and damn.
Still, POV gives insight that a mere expression can't. And without the visual element, we need those extra hints. Every character has their own speech pattern, syntax and vocabulary; done correctly, you should be able to read an entire page and know who is speaking.
Present tense gives immediacy to the action. A blatant borrowing from the scriptwriting school. And the same goes for borrowing the shorthand of the cinema to set the scene.
I have no excuses for the puns, though. Sorry.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Seems I have a lot of bad habits
yeh but... YOU RULE!
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