Fic ratings - how do YOU do it?
POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 9, 2007 19:28
VIEWED: 14100
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Quote:Absolutely! Having these things pointed out help me figure out my own opinions, let me know which of my own niggles to listen to and which to let go. I get sad when I post unpopular chapters and get little or no feedback. I want the criticism! I've had people admit that they didn't want to be negative, so held back. But that's exactly the stuff that I want to hear!
Originally posted by EmpireX:
She pointed out the exact place in my story that *I* knew I had struggled with - where it was weakest - and I really appreciated it.
I have to say - there are writers who are very open to criticism, and this leads to fun places for me. Leiasky and jetflair, definitely. Jetflair got an armload of criticism on a chapter this summer, and replied to it by explaining her choices, which I found really illuminating. I wish that happened more often, rather than: "I write what I write so worship me or F*** off!" *sigh* That's just no fun.
Quote:Whoa - writing is a craft? Nuh-uh!
I think, more than anything, we as a group should focus on craft
Quote:So very true! I second that!
Don't be a jerk and rate it low because it might actually be decently-written.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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bump, bump, bumpin' up
"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Jetflair got an armload of criticism on a chapter this summer, and replied to it by explaining her choices, which I found really illuminating. I wish that happened more often, rather than: "I write what I write so worship me or F*** off!" *sigh* That's just no fun.
I take that as a great compliment, since accepting criticism is not one of my best skills :D
That was a case of my being grateful that people were willing to express to me the problems they had with the chapter and why, rather than just being silent. Being silent doesn't tell the writer what you think they did wrong, it just tells them something *is* wrong. And in that case I was able to explain to some people the why of it. There is much more of that "why" yet to come in the story, by the way ;)
I think there is an establishing of trust that has to take place on the side of both the writer and the commenter before constructive criticism can work, and it's rare on this site that that happens.
The writer has to trust that the commenter isn't just being mean, and that the commenter has the skill and perspective to accurately poke the right holes in the story. I don't want someone who gets Mal and John McClane confused telling me how to write, and you don't want me commenting on the nuances of your beloved Mal/River slash.
The commenter has to trust that the writer won't be hurt by what they say, and that the writer even wants their advice in the first place.
I have had good and bad exchanges with people....some in particular have been very generous with their time in critiquing my writing, and have both improved my work and increased my confidence in telling a story. I am very grateful to those people.
I've had people appreciate advice I've given, but I've also hurt people, and that doesn't feel good. It really comes back to establishing trust.
I'm not sure that can take place in a comment box alone.
"Love keeps her in the air...."
www.serenityverse.com/fffanfic - My fanfics
www.serenityverse.com/shop - Firefly Jewelry
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When we were students first learning how to cobble together a thesis statement and make five paragraphs strung together a passionate argument for social change or a tragic love affair, we trusted the teacher. Here, there's no wise grammarian, and there certainly is an incredible age range and skill range. That makes it endlessly fascinating and creative, and also makes it art, not education. How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head? How can you put a numerical value on it?
If you are a professional author posting here, you know that the marketplace ultimately dictates your "ranking", or financial success or failure. The dispassionate bottom line - anonymous and final. Your talent shines through here regardless and rankings are high.
If you are a rank beginner - it usually shows - and people have usually been very kind. The ranking aren't as high, but the language of the comments is always more supportive - the effort IS appreciated.
Browncoats seem to be unusually supportive to each other - very helpful when you're the underdog. But if you want editorial skills and professional critique, you may not get them from readers who are grateful to read ANYTHING about Firefly.
I just love to read the stories and can appreciate the hard work of crafting them. If a story sucks, I won't ever comment. I spent 20 years grading essays to EVER want to do that for fun. If someone seriously wanted the truth from me they'd get it fully for the positive comments, subtle hints for the glaring errors, and never for the raunchy stuff. Remember, this is for fun, people. If you want an editor, be careful what you ask for - you may get it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
When we were students first learning how to cobble together a thesis statement and make five paragraphs strung together a passionate argument for social change or a tragic love affair, we trusted the teacher. Here, there's no wise grammarian, and there certainly is an incredible age range and skill range. That makes it endlessly fascinating and creative, and also makes it art, not education. How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head? How can you put a numerical value on it?
I'll disagree on this point. The absence of a concrete stylistic/grammatical guide does not connote the idea of art to me, and I would judge ranges in age and ability as just that -- ranged age and ability, not a diagnostic criterion for art. In terms of education, I really can't say, because that's not entirely my province as a reader. For all I know, the posting author is simply sharing something he or she wrote as an exercise prompted by an academic requirement I'll never see. Writing a fic may be educational for one author and shirking study, so to speak, for someone else. I also don't see a polarity between education and art. Just because something is written in line with the rules of engagement an instructor set before a student doesn't mean the resulting text cannot be artistic; just because the writing is meant to be taken as an artistic venture doesn't mean it isn't a formulaic product. Art calls in yet more variables than that.
If something is indeed creatively done, I'd say it's well on its way to being art, but even creativity has its boundaries. I, with no training whatsoever in sculpture, can staple a six-pack ring to a scrap piece of fiberglass siding and leave the assemblage sitting in my front yard as a piece of artwork. It's creative, I'll say, and furthermore I'll maintain that it's a commentary on the woeful use of synthetics that are destroying our planet's ecosystems, and so on, so forth, on down the line. If my "artwork" does not evoke some thought or feeling in a viewer, or if my intentions are not at least in some small measure accessible to said viewer, then I've made a doorstop, never mind how much I rail about art-this and creative-that. I could just as easily get a doorstop by chopping a wood block along a diagonal, so why bother with the siding and six-pack ring? If my artwork didn't do its job communicating my ideas or sparking others, what good is it as art? Do I need an ego boost from the use of the word "art?"
Prose presented as fanfiction, never mind the fandom, comes with two incontrovertible standards by which it may be judged by anyone. Anyone who knows the language in which the fic is written and knows the universe in which the story is based can indeed go back and judge the quality of what someone has posted for reading, each to his own tastes and understanding. In terms of Firefly, does the fic fit the 'Verse in terms of available technology and locations? Do the characters fit their basic profiles that exist on film, or is there an unexplained discontinuity in how the characters interact? Is there a plot that opens, increases in conflict, and finds resolution in a manner that would suggest the author remembered what went before and had planned out the conclusion, or can a reader dimly hear Lamb Chop, Hush Puppy, et al. singing about how "this is the fic that never ends?" If I were to go back and ask the author what his intentions were, could I say that the fic presented what the author wanted to get across, or that I arrived at the same conclusions myself after I read? If intention and product don't line up exactly, is the latter at least close to the "stated" goal? If I think the intentions purposely aren't concrete, does the text contain enough of an ideological pattern that I can pick something up after I've read it, or do I come away thinking that I'd've found more depth reading from my phone book? Can I read the text at all, or do I need to take every line thr
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Marry me.
"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"
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I avoid leaving ratings, and prefer comments. I would say that mentally I tend to separate it into 6-8 (average to pretty darned good) and 9-10 (please send more). Anything less than that would be something that was.. below average. If you didn't even try to get the voices right, you were only writing to satisfy your personal fetish with no regard to plausibility, or you completely failed to run the gorram thing through spellcheck at the least I will count it against you. If I can find nothing nice to say I will say nothing. If there's something I like or want to offer encouragement I will. I would hope the reverse is also true.
If my stuff bites, please let me know so I can stop torturing you with it. If you like it, please tell me why. If you have gentle suggestions for improvement ("Get a f*cking beta, honey!") please leave them.
It helps. A lot.
I'm writing for my own entertainment, first and foremost, and because ideas crawl in and won't leave me alone until I put them down on paper, or whatever else they end up on. I then subject others to my whimsies out of sheer sadism and egocentricity. Or maybe just 'cause I want to share.
The ratings usually make me think "OK, that didn't totally suck, and maybe somebody really liked it", but beyond that I try not to take them or myself too seriously.
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Quote:...
Originally posted by PSandusky:
In terms of Firefly, does the fic fit the 'Verse in terms of available technology and locations? Do the characters fit their basic profiles that exist on film, or is there an unexplained discontinuity in how the characters interact? Is there a plot that opens, increases in conflict, and finds resolution in a manner that would suggest the author remembered what went before and had planned out the conclusion, or can a reader dimly hear Lamb Chop, Hush Puppy, et al. singing about how "this is the fic that never ends?" If I were to go back and ask the author what his intentions were, could I say that the fic presented what the author wanted to get across, or that I arrived at the same conclusions myself after I read? If intention and product don't line up exactly, is the latter at least close to the "stated" goal? If I think the intentions purposely aren't concrete, does the text contain enough of an ideological pattern that I can pick something up after I've read it, or do I come away thinking that I'd've found more depth reading from my phone book? Can I read the text at all, or do I need to take every line three times over to decipher the author's grammar or punctuation?
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pardon me, I'm just melting into a pool of vacant-eyed drooly gladness over this... Back off, empirex, this one's mine LOL!
Really, this makes me want to go write. It's all these issues of communication, of prose as a two-way street, a matter not only of creation but of perception so that the fiction exists apart from the writer... that just lights my fire. Who wouldn't want to face harsh criticism if it helps bring a story to life? To touch people the way Joss has touched us?
Quote:Hey - art is ranked on a daily basis. Like it or not, it's given dollar values and popularity values and ratings from reviewers and on and on. I'd even argue that it's necessary - with the piles of books published each year, most of us need help sorting through it. I'm not going to look over every book in the store!
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
How can you rank art? How can you judge an artist? How can you really know what is going on in someone else's head?
As for what's going on in someone's head: that's the writer's job to make clear. The most beautifully imagined scene is useless if it's put onto paper poorly. The "education" of art is the framework that makes it possible to bring a vision to life; all those silly grammar rules aren't there so we can get a gold star from teacher. They are what makes it possible for readers to understand what we're telling them.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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No, I'm not back from my trip yet. I'm still in London for the next few days. I just have some free time and am going to respond to a post! :)
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
It's almost become the norm to defend one's mediocrity, to announce to readers that criticism is not welcome and things will never change.
Silence speaks louder than words for me nowadays.
Quote:
Really, some of these whiny writers would be going out to buy a shotgun if they got all the red ink that I've gotten from one of my betas,
raises hand
She gives me a LOT of red ink too! :)
Quote:
and I'll take the risk of saying that I invest more hours in my writing than most anyone here. (No one else is as crazy as me LOL!)
I think no truer words have ever come out of your mouth. LOL!
Quote:
My fantasy is that criticism would be given more often, like maybe readers would say something positive and something negative about every fic, no matter how good or bad it is. Then maybe writers would see criticism as a natural part of the process, and a compliment rather than an insult. Because it is, really.
I started to do that. And I've tried to keep with it. It's difficult to write up a good critique if I'm just not emotionally invested in the story.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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