Evils of the World
POSTED BY: theheroofcanton
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:57
VIEWED: 16503
PAGE 6 of 9
Quote:I don’t think it’s fair to say that I haven't respected you or the evidence. And yes, I am sometimes confrontational in a discussion. And, no your arguments haven’t been free of confrontation. But that’s okay. I respect you and the evidence, all the more. I have no reason not to. You seem like an intelligent person. But you shouldn’t take that to mean that necassarily I agree with you.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
but we should respect the evidence and each other.
Quite frankly I don't see you doing that with regards to our particular discussion. Perhaps it is just the widening gap between our two cultures.
In Canada aggressive tones in discussion make it an argument. Since I tend to see a lot of aggression in your posts, this is an argument. I have tried to post without any aggression in them and I hope that they were taken as such.
I don't respect opinions that seek to broadly paint people as racists or fascist without adequate support for such claims. That’s not a respectable opinion. That’s defamation, possibly libel, maybe Anti-Americanism. I would ask that you not tie yourself too closely to this article before you understand the facts.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don't respect opinions that seek to broadly paint people as racists or fascist without adequate support for such claims. That’s not a respectable opinion. That’s defamation, possibly libel, maybe Anti-Americanism. I would ask that you not tie yourself too closely to this article before you understand the facts.
Since things are hospitable I'll just say this. Before you say that I don't know the facts etc. you should know where I am coming from.
My wife is German. They learn *a lot* about what went on during the world wars to quell any such ideas from coming up again. I think it is safe to say that it has been effective. Also, she has told me that that article has a ring of truth to it.
When Hitler was rising to power in Germany there were people that spoke out against him and tried to get the people of Germany to see what was really going on. But, when the people finally did it was too late.
Now before we start screaming and yelling here, I am not saying that Bush is Hitler. What I am saying is that people in the US and around the world are screaming that something is horribly wrong with the US and what they are doing around the world. This can *not* be taken lightly. It speaks volumes that this is happening with such numbers. This is a warning. What will happen if people in the US don't listen and do something about it is for the fates to know now and us to find out later.
Basically, my point is something *is* wrong and it is up to the citizens of the US to question and find the root cause and kill it.
----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River
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Sorry, don't have time to read them all. Making quick little point.
Sometimes I can hardly remember the meaning of politics. (Now it's drilled in since I've looked it up so many gorram times!) This is why I don't do much politics. Sure, historical politics and economics. Just go back 50-150 years or so, and that's what I do. My voting style: Voting against someone. If that's impossible, I'll flip a coin. When I do vote, I'll figure out somethin'.
End of random history-type learning. Now back to your regularly posted thread.
_____________
"Freedom is the Freedom to say that 2 plus 2 make 4. If that is granted, all else follws"-Winston, 1984
Teela Brown, keeper of bad typing.
"No one reads these things any way."- Bart on Blackboard
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Quote:Wonderful, but I have yet to see any of this truth. What I see are people making broad characterizations. I can find similarities in anything if I make my characterizations broad enough.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
My wife is German. They learn *a lot* about what went on during the world wars to quell any such ideas from coming up again. I think it is safe to say that it has been effective. Also, she has told me that that article has a ring of truth to it.
Quote:And every time there has ever been an election in this country there are people for and against the elected president. Just because people disagree with the president’s policies doesn’t make the US a fascist nation. Europeans didn’t have any love for Clinton either. But it is time that some of this petty politics is put aside.
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
When Hitler was rising to power in Germany there were people that spoke out against him and tried to get the people of Germany to see what was really going on. But, when the people finally did it was too late.
There is something wrong, though. Rogue nations and terrorist networks are attempting to dictate world politics through bribery and terrorism. They are in control of countries and oppressing innocent people, and apparently there are a lot of people in the world whose response to this is to ridicule the nations trying to stop terrorism. I think that is foolish, and it is fanatical. The US is not a fascist nation because it suits the politics of certain people who think that the failed policy of appeasement should take precedence over the rule of civilization. Iraq flaunted the UN for a dozen years, and finally someone had the balls to do something about it. Bin Laden organized and instigated a half dozen terrorist attacks but it wasn’t until the attack that killed 3000 people before anyone took him seriously. There is an analogue to Hitler and Nazi Germany here, but it is not the US, and I think it is time that some people come to terms with the realities of the world.
I do agree with you on one thing. It took a lot of people a long time to realize the danger that Rogue states like Nazi Germany posed, and by the time they got around to it, it was, in many cases, too late. And it seems that that is a lesson of history that has been ignored by a lot of people. It's unfortunate that it took 9/ll to light a fire under the ass of the Bush Administration, but thankfully, they have chosen not to rely on appeasement and the policy that made Nazi Germany so powerful.
And that's my opinion.
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Quote:Yes, I read the article. I don’t know about “the article that it linked to”. The article was basically trying to draw comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Bush Administration, which is not only hackneyed but also ridiculous. We are not Nazi Germany, ipso facto. I don’t appreciate these drive-by attempts to paint the Bush Administration as Nazis or Bush as Hitler.ble, which I responded to.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I agree. I hate when the Bush-haters call him a NAZI. I wish someone would just round them all up and exterminate the lot of them. But nobody is going to do that, because we're not NAZIS.
Now those bad guys we're at war with, they like to round disagreeable types up and kill em. Hitler would have loved Saddam and Bin Ladden.
Good thing Bush is President.
As for the whole war issue, it goes like this:
Option 1: Fight (The Bush approach)
Option 2: Don't fight (The anti-war crowd)
Option 3: Pretend to fight (The Clinton era solution)
We know the option our enemies have chosen.
H
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Quote:This is such tired old propaganda. George Bush, whether you agree with him or not, legitimately won the election.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Sorry, but I choose to dispute the legitimacy of his victory; a single example as to why: The ChoicePoint company gave Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris a list of 57,000 felons prior to the election of 2000; as a consequence, she ordered the removal of those individuals from the voting rolls. Unfortunately, 95% of those listed weren't felons! By the time the error was corrected, those 54,000-plus people had found themselves disenfranchised.
Noteworthily, the vast majority of those people were guilty of something -- most of them were either People of Color, Democrats, or both. Big Gorram Crimes, in a Bush-controlled state, apparently.
54,000 votes, in the closest contest in American Presidential Election History. Stolen. And what was ChoicePoint's punishment for this? Surprise surprise, ChoicePoint is one of the big prize winners sucking at the Federal teat in the War on Terrorism. Crime pays, provided the man in the oval office is your accomplice.
Yes, perhaps Bush could have won legitimately. But he chose not to. And that, friends, is why I refer to him as "Our Duly Appointed President."
"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
As for the whole war issue, it goes like this:
Option 1: Fight (The Bush approach)
Option 2: Don't fight (The anti-war crowd)
Option 3: Pretend to fight (The Clinton era solution)
Or Option 4: Attack the Actual Enemy.
The war on Afghanistan is defensible; they aided Bin Laden, and gave Al Queda a training and staging area. I supported Bush in this.
But Iraq, no matter how evil a bastard Saddam is, no matter what atrocities he had commited, Iraq didn't attack us, and apparently wasn't preparing to!
For the record, most of the 9/11 suicide terrorists were Saudi. You know, Saudi Arabia, the country George Bush and Dick Cheney are in bed with.
So why aren't we at war with them? Well, they hadn't embarrassed Our Duly Appointed President's sweet old daddy. So we decided to blow the go se out of Iraq instead. After all, they look just like the people that hurt us. What the hell, it's close enough for Joe Sixpack.
Maybe Saddam deserved to be deposed. But it wasn't our gorram job to decide that! If we think we can be the cops of the world just because we've got the biggest stick, I fear for my country. For the Gods do not take kindly to bullies.
"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
When Hitler was rising to power in Germany there were people that spoke out against him and tried to get the people of Germany to see what was really going on. But, when the people finally did it was too late.
And every time there has ever been an election in this country there are people for and against the elected president. Just because people disagree with the president’s policies doesn’t make the US a fascist nation.
You miss my point. I know that there will always be people against the current admin. This happens in all countries. But when it happens in the numbers that we see today...
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Iraq flaunted the UN for a dozen years, and finally someone had the balls to do something about it.
And without due cause. Many people have made many points such as:
Where is the WMD?
etc.
Basically, the US had failed to show that Iraq was a clear and present danger. And the world at large said no, which kind of says a lot.
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Bin Laden organized and instigated a half dozen terrorist attacks but it wasn’t until the attack that killed 3000 people before anyone took him seriously.
But, he was trained by the CIA. Yes, he was ignored by the world at large for along time, but, you are wrong that no-one took him seriously until 9/11. Wasn't it the Russians that attempted to get the Taliban out a little while ago? And wasn't Bin Laden among them? Aren't they still there and retaking territory?
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There is an analogue to Hitler and Nazi Germany here, but it is not the US, and I think it is time that some people come to terms with the realities of the world.
And which country is that? And what realities are those?
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It's unfortunate that it took 9/ll to light a fire under the ass of the Bush Administration, but thankfully, they have chosen not to rely on appeasement and the policy that made Nazi Germany so powerful.
It seems as though you are trying to tie 9/11 to Iraq. I know this can't be because even the FBI and CIA have stated that Iraq had no involvement there.
The fact of the matter is that terrorism is here to stay. There will always be crazies that will try to use these tactics to meet there own whacked out ends. But, what we in the civilized world can *not* do is to cave into that fear. If we do then they have already won.
We can't create xenophobic policies because "the terrorists might get us" nor will they work. We must go on with our daily lives as if it wasn't there. And no I'm not saying we should put on blinders and ignore it altogether. We should do something about it but not to the point where it degrades the amount of freedom for the individual.
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
- Thomas Jefferson
"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Bejamin Franklin
I really do think that on a very fundamental level we agree, but, entirely disagree about how to go about it. ie You seem to support the invasion of Iraq where as I condemned it from the start as I viewed that other methods should have been applied first.
Anyway, I seem to be nodding off, so...
----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Wow, really great invective, you guys! Keep up the hate!
Reminded me of some more of my most detested things about being in this world, in no particular order:
1. Ideological slaves from the far left who demonize everyone else for the evils of the world.
2. Ideological slaves from the far right who demonize everyone else for the evils of the world.
3. Fence-sitters in the middle who demonize everybody, right and left, for the evils of the world.
Umm, while I believe in political discourse, whether or not it's sane and educated, don't they have someplace else you can go and do it? You're all tying up precious bandwidth with regurgitated dogma, when this website is supposed to be about Firefly.
Go to MSN or Yahoo and vent spleen 'til you're red or blue in the face, depending upon affiliation; then pick up a party-sponsored placard and march; then face off against the counter-protestors and shout epithets at each other; then start throwing things -- bottles, rocks, etc. Meanwhile, the returning heros of our armed forces -- the ones who defend your freedom of speech from all enemies of Democracy with their lives -- are thinking, "What the f**k!?!".
Since it was Finn and I that got this off to a rousing start, and I was at work when you posted this, I would like to respond- I dont know about Finn, but to me we were having a rational argument about politics, which started over a FF question- Yeah, there was a little sarcasm thrown in by both sides, but I hold nothin' against him- If he can go shot for shot with me, I respect him- There's no hate here, just a discussion- If I suddenly called Finn a jackoff and where to stick GW, that's hate and too far, but I didnt and wouldnt- Respectfully, it's you that brought real insults into it, by suggesting our discussion to be unsane and uneducated and telling us to leave a forum and go march- Dont like the posts? Dont read 'em, dont post to 'em- If Haken's worried about bandwidth, he'll let us know-
Finn, I still love ya baby-
------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Hey, y'all.
Umm, yeah...
I just throw what I have been thinking about this whole debate, and then answer the question the thread addresses.
Personally, I have to say that I do think Bush was as duly elected as can be expected. Florida was not the only place where voting irregularities occurred, and this is not the only election that it has happened in. That we have not worked harder to address this problem after an election that both candidates worked hard to steal says more about us than it does about W.
Bush is not Hitler, and Saddam very nearly was. This, however, does not mean that we as a people cannot question the reasons our administration gave for going to war. The WMD's have not been found, and very possibly won't be found. This means that: a) Saddam's scientists were ninjas and we will never find weapons that did exist; b) the weapons may have existed some time ago, but not during the war or the build-up for war; or c) we were told a bald-faced lie. I tend to lean to B personally, but cannot discount the other two out of hand. This, plus the fact that alot of the world either hates us, fears us, or distrust us because of the war (well, some people already hated/feared us, but the numbers certianly have increased), means that we as a people have to decide if the president who dragged us into this should stay in office.
On that note, the men and women of out armed forces are out there risking their lives in Iraq because of administration policy. That doesn't make me a bad person for saying that they should not have been sent there in the first place. If people decide that they need to vote out an incumbent official, or that his policies are bad and should be discussed or protested, they should do that. The freedom to criticize officials or remove them form office via legal means are requirements for a constitutional republic to function. As I said above, Bush ain't Hitler. That does not mean that we should just blindly accept what he (or any other president or offical for that matter) says at face value. We need to judge our political circumstances for ourselves, skeptically, but not cynically. That, IMHO, is what really does stop us from being like NAZI Germany. If we abandon that...
Jon
P.S.
Zoid seems to miss interpreted y'all's discussion above. Go a little easy on him. From my perspective, it did look a little shrill, even if y'all understood it to be reasonable. Just sayin, is all.
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