General Discussions

Evils of the World

POSTED BY: theheroofcanton
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 12:57
VIEWED: 16503
PAGE 3 of 9

SEVENPERCENT

Friday, April 9, 2004 3:54 PM

I'll take these one at a time

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
The largest tax cut for the poor since Reagan suggests this isn’t true.

Ahh, yes, the tax cut for the poor- Of which the poor saw almost nothing; His middle class tax cut (of which I am firmly in the middle class and saw no change) which only weakened the economy- He's a real trooper for the impoverished, that guy- His failure to provide adaquate education for poor children (no child left behind is not helping them)

Quote:
What constitutes a “greedy corporation” in your world? One that makes a lot of money or one that wants to make a lot of money? Because every business falls into one or two of these categories; even if all they do is fly around looking for work. This has nothing to do with Bush.

Let's see, Enron's secret dealings with its former officer, Ken Lay, and the VP Dick Cheney over energy; of which we later saw Enron tank and burn its employees with nothing even resembling a just punishment for those responsible (see GW about the poor, above)- Oh, and while we speak of Cheney, I'll just drop Halliburton, who somehow manages to land all these contracts that no one else gets to bid on- Oh and I almost forgot Rumsfeld's connection to the company that sold nuclear reactor parts to Korea- These are all facts, look them up (I suggest tompaine.com, or something similar, I dont think you'll find them on the White House website)

Quote:
17 UN Resolutions, 2 invasions of neighboring states, an attempt to assassinate a former American president, the murder and rape of millions of innocent people says you’re wrong.

First, one of the attempted invasions of other countries you're referring to better not be Iran, because if you remember, we helped them in that one- We gave Saddam the key to the city of Detroit in the 80's to honor him- Also, not to defend the evil piece of shit, but we used to try to assassinate folks too (it's only recently we gave that up, and GW wanted to repeal that Exec. Order that stops us-)- As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument- If you think Iraq is the greatest civil rights violator in the world, you dont even deserve to post on this thread- Besides, not to sound callous, but they were his own people, and it's not like they helped us take him down- It's not like they started a revolution and we helped them; those people sat and watched while we did it, cheered that he was gone, and then started killing US troops-

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

KNIBBLET

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:06 PM

Quote:
Questions posed originally by Apeman61:

Q.Did Bush have a damn torture center inside our Olympic headquarters?
A. No, his torture center is at Guantanamo Bay. Sending suspects to allied countries with poor human rights records to be questioned also counts against him in my books.

Q. Does Bush use virtually all the country's money to build palaces for himself?
A. No, but he is spending $70 Billion to prop up his buddy Dick's Halliburton.

Q. Does bush murder his own people?
A. No, but he's willing to set them up for murder and through that exposure, kill other Americans. The exposure of a CIA operative working in counter terrorism came from inside the White House.
Valerie Plame, wife of retired Ambassador Joseph Wilson, was exposed when her husband dared to point out that the President was using intelligence which had proven to be crude forgeries.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Apeman61:
It drives me insane when people compare bush to saddam. Did Bush have a damn torture center inside our Olympic headquarters? Does Bush use virtually all the country's money to build palaces for himself? does bush murder his own people? So how the fuck does he compare to Saddam?

This is a good point.

I know that some people disagree with Bush. I don’t mind honest disagreements. But there is a big difference between honest and fair criticism and lacking such a basic understanding of the world that you are unable to recognize the difference between Bush and Hussein. Comparing the two, much less placing Bush below Saddam makes you look fanatical and silly. Not to put too fine a point on it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Ahh, yes, the tax cut for the poor- Of which the poor saw almost nothing; His middle class tax cut (of which I am firmly in the middle class and saw no change) which only weakened the economy- He's a real trooper for the impoverished, that guy- His failure to provide adaquate education for poor children (no child left behind is not helping them)

Actually the poor saw the largest percentage of the cut, in fact over twice the percentage given to the wealthy. And following the tax cut the economy began to pick up which suggests that the tax cut was one of, if not the sole, reason the economy improved. And public education has never been adequate for underprivileged schools. No Child Left Behind may or may not be working, but at least it was an attempt to change things.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Let's see, Enron's secret dealings with its former officer, Ken Lay, and the VP Dick Cheney over energy; of which we later saw Enron tank and burn its employees with nothing even resembling a just punishment for those responsible (see GW about the poor, above)- Oh, and while we speak of Cheney, I'll just drop Halliburton, who somehow manages to land all these contracts that no one else gets to bid on- Oh and I almost forgot Rumsfeld's connection to the company that sold nuclear reactor parts to Korea- These are all facts, look them up (I suggest tompaine.com, or something similar, I dont think you'll find them on the White House website)

I don’t need to look them up, I know where you are getting all this stuff. But none of it is an indictment of the Bush Administration. I can give you a list a mile long of the appearance of as well as evidence of impropriety in the Clinton Administration. Some was legitimate, some wasn’t. Stated without corroborating evidence and direct association, it is basically just an anti-capitalist conspiracy theory.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
First, one of the attempted invasions of other countries you're referring to better not be Iran, because if you remember, we helped them in that one-

We did not make the decision for him. Saddam Hussein made the choice to invade a neighboring country. That had absolutely nothing to do with the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
we used to try to assassinate folks too (it's only recently we gave that up, and GW wanted to repeal that Exec. Order that stops us-)-

So, what difference does that make? Attempted murder of a former American president is still cause for war.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument-

Why shouldn’t I dare use that argument? Because you have no legitimate counter? Saddam Hussein is responsible for the intentional and unprovoked targeting and murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent people including women and children. I’m sorry that you feel these people were not important enough to be angry about, but I do.

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
If you think Iraq is the greatest civil rights violator in the world, you dont even deserve to post on this thread- Besides, not to sound callous, but they were his own people, and it's not lik

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MERLINDREA

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:15 PM

Quote:
It's not like they started a revolution and we helped them; those people sat and watched while we did it, cheered that he was gone, and then started killing US troops

For everyone interested in reading what Iraqis think about the whole situation, there is a great blog: healingiraq.blogspot.com by a young Iraqi dentist. He also links to several other blogs, both Iraqi and American soldiers in Iraq. It shows that - like always - only the ones with the shouting voices (and hostages) are heard, not the much bigger population of folks who just want to live in peace.

One comment regarding the Bush vs Saddam comparison. I agree that Bush's deeds cannot be compared with Saddam - he, as far as we know, didn't torture anyone, for instance.

However, the issue is that Bush, with probably the best intentions, I give him that, has unfortunately much more power to wreak havoc on the whole world. Look what we have now in Iraq - its no longer a problem of only Iraqis, not even only the Middle East, but the whole world - japanese hostages, Madrid bombings, suspected planned attacks in Rome... Somehow the world, that was largely united just after 9/11, is more fractionated than ever...

It depends on how you define "evil" I guess. It goes back to one of the big philosophical questions: Is evil to do evil with good intentions? Or is evil to do good but with evil intentions?

Merl

SIGNYM

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:24 PM

Hmm... 500 ppl own 50% (yes, 50%) of the world's assets. So 4 billion folks (not counting China and Russia) work for the benefit of 0.00000001% of the population, while the the infrastructure tanks and the world approaches thermal runaway.

Any system that allows that is evil. You fill in the blank as to what that system is.

Don't forget, the basis of FF is that the old earth was "used up" (I actually wonder if they don't mean "blown up"... the source of all those planetoids circling a star at about earth distance), and we are heading in that direction.

Yippee hooray for the people.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:33 PM

The situation in Iraq has devolved only because pro-totalitarian forces within Iraq are afraid of what might happen if a legitimate Iraqi government is installed. There has always been terrorism and hostages. The Iraq war didn’t start these things. Prior to an invasion of Iraq there were dozens of terrorists groups; many of them acting worldwide against Spanish, Italian, Japanese, American, ect interests often with little to no substantial impediment. Today many terrorist networks are retaliating against what is a real and substantial threat to their existence.

One should not expect terrorists and criminals who seek to kill innocent people for their bigoted views to disappear quietly, and one should also be careful of labeling the fight against such violent bigotry as evil.

SEVENPERCENT

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I know where you are getting all this stuff. But none of it is an indictment of the Bush Administration. I can give you a list a mile long of the appearance of as well as evidence of impropriety in the Clinton Administration. Some was legitimate, some wasn’t. Stated without corroborating evidence and direct association, it is basically just an anti-capitalist conspiracy theory.

Not indicting him, just telling you why folks dont like him- Also, do not put me in the camp of the tinfoil hat brigade because you dont like the facts- I am neither anti-capitalist nor am I uncritical of the Clinton administration- The facts are that the administration has close ties to several corporations that are running roughshod over the American people and doing irreparable damage to the working class- You're using fallacies here, and you're busted-

Quote:
We did not make the decision for him. Saddam Hussein made the choice to invade a neighboring country. That had absolutely nothing to do with the US.

So let me get this straight- If we help a country that invades another, we're not responsible? Since we provided Saddam with nerve agents he used on his own people, we're not responsible for their deaths? We supply the guns and ammunition to fight a war and it has nothing to do with us? To quote a movie line, "Sorry Hans, wrong guess" - We may not be pulling the trigger, but the blood is on our hands too-

Quote:
As far as the murder of innocent people? Dont you dare use that argument-

You took that quote out of context, it went with the other that said there are worse human rights violators in the world that we arent attacking(try China, try N. Korea)- And if you go back, I never said that Saddam was a saint, nor did I compare GW to him- If you use the argument that you and you alone care about the suffering of little children, I'll pass your sainthood recommendation along to His Holiness asap- Of course I care, you're just being asinine here- We all care about innocent people being killed, but the answer is how to help them best and stabilize the region while protecting ourselves, and to that end we are sorely lacking-

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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:53 PM

Here's a sad story from a friend of mine who likes to travel. He was on a plane sitting next to a soldier stationed in Iraq. This soldier told him that they only get one meal a day over there and that his family had to raise the money to pay for his bullet proof vest. So where's all the billions of dollars going that we're supposedly spending on the war? Somebody's getting rich.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

APEMAN61

Friday, April 9, 2004 4:58 PM

This is getting a little heated eh? Maybe we should all just calm down a bit. And agree to disagree as it were. 'Cause it looks like everyone has their own opinions and arguing ain't going to do anything. The way it is is the way it is and it's not going to be changed by yelling at eachother.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, April 9, 2004 5:01 PM

Oh, and I make about 22 thousand dollars a year, which qualifies me as poor. And I saw nothing like a tax break last year. Nothing. I owed.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.