gabriel tam
POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:56
VIEWED: 12612
PAGE 4 of 4
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Originally posted by wytchcroft:Quote:
Originally posted by pachelbel:
Anyone explored that?
get writing - now:)
(please?)
Well, I'm afraid I might write fanfic as well as I draw.
But maybe ... someday ...
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Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
It's upsetting, that such apparently good people could fail their children so miserably, and it makes us appreciate Simon more
I agree with that 100%.
The Tam parents are at best idiots, and at worst they're horrible, self-centered parents.
What parents could be so clueless & oblivious to what was happening to their child as to not give a darn about Simon's allegations? They never went to visit here in that place, or thought to? They put their comfort, their status, and Simon's "future" ahead of any concern for their little girl? Even in 500 years I suspect that real "parents' will still want to protect their children and wish only the best for them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:I absolutely agree! He's very flawed....If Gabriel ever encountered Simon and River again, I don't think it'd be a sure thing that he'd turn them in. He might, but he also might be shocked into seeing his mistakes and actually helping her. There is a good man in him somewhere, a man who loves his children. I find that struggle more compelling than painting him as purely evil.
Originally posted by MerryK:
Gabriel thinks he's doing right, but in the end he's self-serving.
I think that's a laugh. Sorry, mal4prz, but that's the way I see it.
I don't think the Tams are evil, as in criminal mastermind, but I think they're have a petty evilness. Or, at least, Gabriel does. I view Regan as the timid, always told she'd be good for naught for marridge, non-self-confident phony type person(sorry if I have the names mixed up).
I know, I know, this thread is about trying to empathize their good sides, but I'm in a cynical mood today, so just bear with me.
Notice, from Safe, in those early scenes, who Gabriel pays attention to. It's Simon. River barely gets looked at, and then she's patronized. Yes, I know it was a short scene, but I think that emphasises the Chinese cultural influence (I hate the chinese, being a feminist.)
But, to get back to the point (if there is one), the evidence suggests to me that they're good people to have as allies when wading through paperwork, and dealing with politics. I'll admit that. Also, they're not malicious at all. They just want to live their little spoiled lives.
They probably belived what they said to Simon, in that scene when he's confronting his parents with River's letters. Or, if they didn't, they sure wern't going to admit it. Simon and River had to get their intelligence from somewhere, so it's not like they didn't have the brainpower to figure out what was going on. They were just being purposly blind.
Me being cynical, I think at least part of the reason why they wanted Simon to become a doctor was so they could bask in the refleced glory of having a first-class sugion as their son. Can't you imagine them saying "Yes, we always knew dear Simon would make it far?". Ugh.
And I also think they would have turned Simon in. At least, Gabriel would, and Regan would just protest weakly. Remember when Gabriel said "I will not come for you"? He wouldn't be malicious about it, just dissappointed, tsking all the while.
I'll end this rambling post now. Hope you enjoyed it. If you see a point, congradulations, if not, don't feel bad, cause I don't see one lol. I tend to get sidetracked like that (like I suppose I'm doing here!) Forgive me?
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Quote:**imagine a emoticon of me picking my nose LOL!**
You're so smart, Mal4prez.
Quote:You're so smart! But let me just ramble on and write a post that restates this point several times...
The Tams aren't that much different than any other upper-middle class parents, I know.
They WANT the best for their children, they just don't KNOW what that is.
Quote:The really funny thing is that I keep getting in these characterization debates when I agree with people! Seriously, there's nothing in your post I disagree with - the Tams are self-serving, self-focused, phony, shallow people, the kind I'd want to bitch-slap if I met them in real life.
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
I think that's a laugh. Sorry, mal4prz, but that's the way I see it.
Trying to identify their motives and psychology isn't excusing them, it's just defining all facets of them so they can be written as fully rounded characters. Many really good villians have a reason they act bad, a path they took from wholesome to twisted, and at least some potential for redemption.
Anyway, my viewpoint comes of growing up with parents much like the Tams. Unlike Jongsstraw, I don't believe that all parents know how to put their children first. Mine didn't, no matter that they loved me and wanted to. They just didn't know how. It's taken a lotta years for me to learn to co-exist with them, to see that they don't *mean* the harm they do and they aren't evil underneath. They simply can't be depended on, and I have to accept that. And I'm saying this after having spent a weekend with them and several times wanting to throw things at them and tell them to pull their heads out LOL!
Jongsstraw - if you seriously believe that there are NO parents who want their kids to succeed only for the glory of it, or who are able to turn a blind eye to teenaged suffering, or who will abandon their offspring in a pinch rather than be inconvenienced... well, I wish I lived in your world.
Quote:Have you ever tried to confront someone with this kind of blindness? I have. I think it's a stretch to call it "purposeful". They don't consciously decide to blind themselves, and it's not others they are needing to fool. They need to fool themselves, and you can't break through that. As for intelligence... often, the smarter the person is, the better their brain is at building a delusional cardhouse.
They probably belived what they said to Simon, in that scene when he's confronting his parents with River's letters. Or, if they didn't, they sure wern't going to admit it. Simon and River had to get their intelligence from somewhere, so it's not like they didn't have the brainpower to figure out what was going on. They were just being purposly blind.
As an aside: There was actually one thing in your post I don't quite agree with, and that's Gabriel's gender preference. I'm as cynical and feminist as they come, but I just don't see it. River wasn't shy about correcting Simon, and Simon easily put playing with her above doing his homework. And patronized? More like teased fondly. I think the scene's focus on the Gabriel/Simon conversation was because the narrative of the episode centered on Simon's relationship with his father. I don't see it as a statement of Chinese anti-female culture.
I could be very well be wrong! If only there was another episode about River's relationship with her parents... *sigh*
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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I agree with you, Mal4Prez, especially on the point of the Tams being blind. I really have to feel for them at least a little in that scene. Yes, we were introduced to the Alliance and the Academy as capable of great evil, but we have to realize that most of the Core thinks of them as benevolent and wonderful. And to them, for the most part, they are. What Simon is telling them is on level to someone coming out today and saying that the US government has been taking all the students in private schools and cutting into their brains and no one knows about it. Would you believe that? Or would you think that your genius son had passed over the edge between brilliance and madness, or perhaps had paranoid schizophrenia? Even if they might believe it, though unless they already suspected something his evidence might very well be something his unstable mind constructed to provide reason for his madness. Of course, I start to lose sympathy for them when all they talk about is Simon's position, and definitely lose it for Gabriel when he tells Simon he won't come for him. It might be a desperate move for Gabriel in hopes that his toughness will bring Simon to his senses, but he really appears cold. Still, I think it's hard to blame the Tams for not automatically believing Simon's story. We don't know how persistent he was, and if he kept trying then they don't have much excuse for not investigating at least, but hindsight is 20/20 and we don't know the whole situation.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Double post, gorramit!
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Seriously, there's nothing in your post I disagree with - the Tams are self-serving, self-focused, phony, shallow people, the kind I'd want to bitch-slap if I met them in real life.
*insert an applauding emoticon here*
Join the line; I was first, though
Quote:
They don't consciously decide to blind themselves, and it's not others they are needing to fool. They need to fool themselves, and you can't break through that. As for intelligence... often, the smarter the person is, the better their brain is at building a delusional cardhouse.
Good point!
Quote:
As an aside: There was actually one thing in your post I don't quite agree with, and that's Gabriel's gender preference. I'm as cynical and feminist as they come, but I just don't see it. River wasn't shy about correcting Simon, and Simon easily put playing with her above doing his homework. And patronized? More like teased fondly. I think the scene's focus on the Gabriel/Simon conversation was because the narrative of the episode centered on Simon's relationship with his father. I don't see it as a statement of Chinese anti-female culture.
I could be very well be wrong! If only there was another episode about River's relationship with her parents... *sigh*
It could be that I'm just over-reacting. I do, however, absolutely agree with the need for another episode!
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Dropping out of years of lurkerdom to make a minor point about the scene in the beginning of Safe. I don't think that Gabriel was being intentionally patronizing to River, or that he favored his son over his daughter due to some ancient inane sexism.
To me it was a father seeing his little girl as his little girl. Kinda like how, my dad on occation still treats me like I'm 5 as opposed to 25.
(I hope that came out coherent, I'm typing on an hr of sleep in the last two days)
Gabriel Pryn
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
Tennessee Browncoats:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/tennesseebrowncoats/
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Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
side bar - it's such a pity that we didn't much of REGAN - just a tiny glimpse...
B]
I had a long post a few days ago, and the machine ate it! It was very brilliant, and now I can't remember most of it.
Regan is interesting. A slightly brittle woman of a certain age, who cannot admit that anything in her perfect life might be wrong, because what's left? They can't allow themselves to realise that there is a hollowness, or a problem, because there is nothing to put in the gap. And I had a take on her...
“Why would I want to go back?” River shocks him. The question is sharp, looks for an answer. “Pretty doll. Tired of dancing at dinner parties. Talks of the bad things that we pretend aren’t there. Make her sleep.” Her head lolls suddenly, eyes glazed. “Poor little doll, let her sit in the sun and dream of stars. Push her chair out of the wind, and mind she doesn’t spill tea on her dress.” The tone is purely their mother’s. Head snaps up again. “No place there. Except, “ and her hand lashes out, stops against his neck, feather-light, “this.”
Oh, and nobody got my 'Heroes' nod...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
side bar - it's such a pity that we didn't much of REGAN - just a tiny glimpse...
B]
I had a long post a few days ago, and the machine ate it! It was very brilliant, and now I can't remember most of it.
Regan is interesting. A slightly brittle woman of a certain age, who cannot admit that anything in her perfect life might be wrong, because what's left? They can't allow themselves to realise that there is a hollowness, or a problem, because there is nothing to put in the gap. And I had a take on her...
INTERESTING... and there's some fic's just in the BSR now with Regan...
Quote:
“Why would I want to go back?” River shocks him. The question is sharp, looks for an answer. “Pretty doll. Tired of dancing at dinner parties. Talks of the bad things that we pretend aren’t there. Make her sleep.” Her head lolls suddenly, eyes glazed. “Poor little doll, let her sit in the sun and dream of stars. Push her chair out of the wind, and mind she doesn’t spill tea on her dress.” The tone is purely their mother’s. Head snaps up again. “No place there. Except, “ and her hand lashes out, stops against his neck, feather-light, “this.”
yes again... (or atleast you make a good case!) i can see River having ended up as a kind of 'lost' person ala Lady Francis Carfax who 'disappears' in sherlock holmes... the head lolling bit - and staring glazed from a chair was caught eerily by cheryl csmpbell when they did it on the telly.
"There is nothing so unfortunate as the Lost woman" writes watson.
i was going to add that a reconcilliation is not impossible - but see the regan tam thread for that.
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