Boycott Fox? You've got to be kidding.

POSTED BY: Thrawn
UPDATED: Friday, April 9, 2004 13:37
VIEWED: 16792
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SERGEANTX

Monday, April 5, 2004 4:55 AM

Is Fox a television network or something?

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

ZOID

Monday, April 5, 2004 5:08 AM

Cardie,

You said:

Quote:
"...whatever you do in regard to the FOX television network will not affect them one darn bit. By all means do what your principles tell you to do, but don't think you are having any effect."

Principles are the only thing that matters. I let the other guy worry about "the effect".

Then you said:

Quote:
"Secondly, people ought to get a basic grasp of how the economics of television work."

Economics in television works the same as it does in any other business proposition. Build a better product, and people will buy it. Manufacture crap and they'll do business someplace else. With the exception of "American Idol", which they transplanted along with Simon from the UK (i.e., not by any means an original creation) and Fox Sports -- stole baseball from NBC and the entire NFL Today cast and crew from CBS -- Fox can't see daylight they're so deep in the ratings hole from the Big 3. That's economic reality.

So they get some truly original programming -- something that could put them on the map -- and what do they do with it? What they always do: mismanage it to death.

Next you said:

Quote:
"FOX launched one of the longest-running SF shows of all time out of a Friday night slot: The X-Files."

Actually, Fox also initially cancelled "X-Files". Fan outrage and letter-writing was the only thing that brought it back from the dead.

You wrote:

Quote:
"All these folks care about is making money, and the only way they can make money is to sell commercials at a good rate prompted by good ratings."

True. But 'Fox the Parent' also breaks out its ratings. They know how much the Sports Division brings in and charge accordingly. They know how much News brings in and charge accordingly.

If their Primetime is in the toilet, except for the unoriginal "Idol", they'll get around to lopping heads in that division.

Thanks for playing...

As I said originally:
Boycott Fox primetime and their primetime sponsors. If you don't buy the sponsors' products, the sponsors get the picture that Fox Primetime is a bad advertising buy and spend their money elsewhere (see response to "[You] people ought to get a basic grasp of economics", above). You don't need a Nielsen box.

Regardless what some of the apologists may say, you are the customer, you can demand more, and you can and will have an effect if you are united and resolute.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My dream conversation with the Fox programmer who pulled the plug on Firefly:

Fox Moron: "Would you like to supersize that order, sir?"

Me: "No thanks."

Fox Moron: "$4.53 at the first window. Please pull up."

Ahhhh!

[zoid]

_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

THRAWN

Monday, April 5, 2004 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Economics in television works the same as it does in any other business proposition. Build a better product, and people will buy it. Manufacture crap and they'll do business someplace else. With the exception of "American Idol", which they transplanted along with Simon from the UK (i.e., not by any means an original creation) and Fox Sports -- stole baseball from NBC and the entire NFL Today cast and crew from CBS -- Fox can't see daylight they're so deep in the ratings hole from the Big 3. That's economic reality.

So they get some truly original programming -- something that could put them on the map -- and what do they do with it? What they always do: mismanage it to death.

Actually, Fox also initially cancelled "X-Files". Fan outrage and letter-writing was the only thing that brought it back from the dead.

Right. The primetime managers of Fox TV are dumb. You can stop making this point. We all agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
True. But 'Fox the Parent' also breaks out its ratings. They know how much the Sports Division brings in and charge accordingly. They know how much News brings in and charge accordingly.

If their Primetime is in the toilet, except for the unoriginal "Idol", they'll get around to lopping heads in that division.

Thanks for playing...

As I said originally:
Boycott Fox primetime and their primetime sponsors. If you don't buy the sponsors' products, the sponsors get the picture that Fox Primetime is a bad advertising buy and spend their money elsewhere (see response to "[You] people ought to get a basic grasp of economics", above). You don't need a Nielsen box.

Regardless what some of the apologists may say, you are the customer, you can demand more, and you can and will have an effect if you are united and resolute.

Respectfully,

zoid

What really strikes me is how much we agree. We both think that the problem is a few people, we both think that they need to be fired and the rest will follow, and we both want to effect that change. You keep making those arguments, and I actually agree with them. Let's move on.

Here's the disagreement - you think that boycotting the whole network will do it; I think that watching the good shows will help them get adopted. (Let us leave the argument about advertisers for a moment.) I ask you, what do you think will have a better effect, of the following two options.

1) We don't watch Fox at all. The only Fox shows that ever get reasonably high ratings are reality TV shows.

2) We only watch the good shows on Fox (and also buy the DVDs of the shows that are cancelled, etc), and don't watch the reality TV shows.

Think for a second. You run a network. Which one of those is going to make you want to make LESS reality TV and MORE good TV? I'm thinking the one where the good TV is actually watched/bought. This, and only this, is my argument.

Just to touch on a couple of your other points, though - boycotting the advertising companies will do no good. There's no way for them to connect lower sales of their product with them advertising on Fox even if the people boycotting manage to noticably lower their sales, which is doubtful on the face of it. Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?

MAKEROFPATHS

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:

. . . (much deleted) . . .

Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all. Wouldn't you rather cause them to fix the problem, rather than just feeling good about yourself for not letting it get to you?

I would aree with the principled stand, but I also believe that you have to act to prove your principles. Typically, these principled actions might include boycotting the broadcaster and the products of advertisers on the broadcaster, which typically leads to discussions with friends and acquaintances such that the ripple of your activities flows out and joins the activities of other participants. Word of mouth spreads and maybe a real impact is registered, whether through ratings or advertiser interest/disinterest. Yes, I believe my single, personal vote has an impact.

ZOID

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:09 AM

Thrawn, hope you're still reading:

Let me say I'm a native Houstonian -- though I schooled crosstown (Eat 'em up, eat 'em up...) -- and that it's good to have bright young people participating in the discussion. You've got to be something of a 'River' to attend Rice. Congrats and say 'hi' to the Mob for me...

Now, to the meat:

You wrote:

Quote:
First of all, I actually agree about Bill Gates/Microsoft. The situation there, though, is the exact reverse of what you're saying about Fox - I understand what point you were making, but I don't see how there's a point there besides background.

Background on the 'secret life of corporations' was the point. As I said, there's nothing (particularly) wrong with Fox as an entity. But that dog won't hunt, cuz it's got a tumor in the Primetime Division. Read on...

You wrote:

Quote:
Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...

Very good; but incomplete and hence, fallacious. A more appropriate revision of your analogy is that this hypothetical restaurant brings the "really excellent dish", lets you take four bites from it, then removes the plate before you can get a fifth episode ...er, forkful, and replaces it with aforementioned feces burger, which are in fact its standard fare. I -- and my sympathizers here -- are tired of this particular restaurant not letting us finish our meals and forcing ordure down our throats. What you're defending is not even a satisfying portion. It leaves one feeling distinctly unfulfilled, poisoned and betrayed.

Quote:
(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.

This statement is a problem. They do indeed have jobs, but I disagree that they're doing them competently or responsibly with regards to their consumers -- the viewers, not the advertisers. Viewers (or 'eyeballs') are what Fox sells to advertisers. If they can't produce them, or chase them off through bad faith practice, then they cannot succeed in fulfilling their obligations to those advertisers. Therefore, Fox's first loyalty must be to the consumers of their programming. Otherwise, they have no product (us) to sell (to Madison Avenue types). As for your mention of ratings, please see also my response to Cardie, above.

Study hard.

Respectfully,

zoid

_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

THRAWN

Monday, April 5, 2004 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Thrawn, hope you're still reading:

Let me say I'm a native Houstonian -- though I schooled crosstown (Eat 'em up, eat 'em up...) -- and that it's good to have bright young people participating in the discussion. You've got to be something of a 'River' to attend Rice. Congrats and say 'hi' to the Mob for me...

My roommate's in the MOB; request accomplished.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Now, to the meat:

You wrote:
Quote:
Then, skipping a bit, regarding the burger thing - say you had a choice of four restaurants (simplified because cable networks exist, but you get the idea). Each restaurant had bunch of dishes. You ate at all four every once in a while. One of them kept introducing really excellent dishes, then taking them off the menu because they didn't sell well. You'd still go eat them, right? If only for variety's sake. That's the better analogy...

Very good; but incomplete and hence, fallacious. A more appropriate revision of your analogy is that this hypothetical restaurant brings the "really excellent dish", lets you take four bites from it, then removes the plate before you can get a fifth episode ...er, forkful, and replaces it with aforementioned feces burger, which are in fact its standard fare. I -- and my sympathizers here -- are tired of this particular restaurant not letting us finish our meals and forcing ordure down our throats. What you're defending is not even a satisfying portion. It leaves one feeling distinctly unfulfilled, poisoned and betrayed.

Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Quote:
(Snipped) ...They have jobs, they do jobs, and, so far, the ratings have pretty much proven to the rest of the network that they do those jobs well.

This statement is a problem. They do indeed have jobs, but I disagree that they're doing them competently or responsibly with regards to their consumers -- the viewers, not the advertisers. Viewers (or 'eyeballs') are what Fox sells to advertisers. If they can't produce them, or chase them off through bad faith practice, then they cannot succeed in fulfilling their obligations to those advertisers. Therefore, Fox's first loyalty must be to the consumers of their programming. Otherwise, they have no product (us) to sell (to Madison Avenue types). As for your mention of ratings, please see also my response to Cardie, above.

Study hard.

Respectfully,

zoid

Yes, Fox is quite behind the other three. But the only shows they do have that get good ratings are the reality TV shows, so I can understand the higher-ups saying "good job - you got more good reality TV programming", you know?

I mean, I agree they're doing their jobs poorly, I just realize how it could seem they're doing their jobs well. And I think that that won't change if we don't change it.

ZOID

Monday, April 5, 2004 7:11 AM

Thrawn, still awake? Ain'tcha got school later today?

Ah, well. One last response to your adamant defense of Fox as purveyors of unfinished symphonies, then I've got to get back to more productive pursuits:

You wrote:

Quote:
Also, principle is not the only thing that matters. You do the things that make what you want to happen happen. And what you're doing is useless...you may feel morally superior, but you're making no difference at all.

(Sighs wearily) As I said in that post, Principle is the only thing that matters. I assure you, I neither consider myself nor feel in any way superior to anyone. I am sufficient for the world and for myself.

If you have not discovered the value of principles for yourself, or have not had them instilled in you by a parent or teacher in a personally meaningful way, then I offer you this insight to consider:
At the end of the day, it is illusion to think you can control any of the circumstances of your life, the events that occur, the tides of fate. I don't know what your worldview is, but when I was young I felt that I could grab the world by the throat and wring from it whatever fortune I chose, and your potential is certainly greater than mine ever was.

But, now I'm older (much) and I realize that Life is more Chaos than Order. The only thing in this world that we have any chance whatsoever of controlling is our own behavior. Frankly, given the amount of weakness and myopia I have observed in myself and my fellow human beings, I'd say one's chances of even that much success are far from likely.

But, if you develop an appreciation for principled, ethical behavior ("Ethics is what you do when no one is looking") at least you can know that you did your best, didn't quit or take the easy way out, used all of your -- undoubtedly estimable -- God-given talent, and never gave up or cheated on yourself, your true nature. When you look back on your day, your year and ultimately your life, whether Fortune makes of you a king or a fool, you will be able to hold your head up, and look folks in the eye. As sure as I'm drawing breath, that's the only thing that matters. Everything else in this world is "shadows and dust" (Oliver Reed), vanity and folly.

I know that sounds like some old fart blowing. And I don't claim any right to preach at you. Take it as you will; but one day in your future, I promise you will experience a crisis -- everyone does. When you do, maybe you'll recall these words and gain an appreciation for Principle has to offer.

Like our hero, Mal -- a man of honor -- would say, "Just keep flying".

Respectfully,

zoid

_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

TRITON

Monday, April 5, 2004 7:57 AM

ok, for those asking "who has a neilson box?" or "who has influence over someone who does?" how many people have heard of Tivo or even have Tivo? Those people who have Tivo...hey guess what you have a Neilson box. Tivo tracks what shows are recorded, what shows have season passes and what shows are wishlisted, anonymously of course, to this day firefly stands as one of the most requested season pass shows of 2002. currently the "Top 10 List" is published to the networks for free, also apperently in USA Today, i havent looked for it yet. My point you ask? Buy a Tivo, Tivo good shows, dont Tivo anything on Fox, see what happens?, and if nothing comes of it, at least you still have Tivo

P.S. Tax Write Off is three words

-Triton

SEVENPERCENT

Monday, April 5, 2004 8:30 AM

Well, since I'm one of the "boycott Fox" posters, and I've been following this thread, I figured it was finally time to weigh in-

Will my boycott of Fox or their advertisers do anybody any good? Nope, but you make the mistake of believing that I'm kidding myself that it will- What I'm doing is venting, which is what many of my fellow Browncoats (and Wonder-kids?) are doing as well- When you get a network that counts its viewership in the millions, a few thousand complaints and boycotts are nothing, since you arent going to stop the average guy from watching anyway- It's the same problem modern unions face with outsourcing and sweatshop labor; 10,000 people boycott Nike, but 40 million buy the shoes, what does Nike give a shit about the 10k? (Ans: nothing) -
But what our venting does is it gives people like Joss and Tim faith- Faith that their dreams are being heard, and that someone out there thinks what they produce is meaningful, so that maybe they will produce more of it and something will stick- I tell you a Fox boycott, DVD sales, and continued venting (that Joss heard, even if Fox didnt) turned our beloved FF into a movie- Without venting and all the rest, Joss would have given up-
And why not boycott Fox? You say that we dont give good shows a chance because we miss them- Well, let me ask you a real life-metaphor type question- When was the last time you sat down with someone you were diametrically opposed to and let them ramble on until they gave you a nugget of wisdom? My bet is you havent, just like none of the rest of the human race would- Why? The reward just isnt worth the hassle- I proved this with WF; I gave the enemy a chance to redeem itself, came back to the network, and watched them do it again- And, when it all comes down to it, whether your principles make a difference or not, in the end your principles are what define you as a person- How does the exact phrase go (I forget), morality or values are what you are when no one is looking (which I'm sure I mangled, but you get my drift) -

So, I'll continue my boycott- I'll vent- And when Joss and Tim tell me it's time, I'll return- Because I believe in what they do, and whether or not that matters to Fox is inconsequential, because it matters to me-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

OUTLANDER

Monday, April 5, 2004 12:19 PM

Please Don't boycott the Wonderfalls DVDs. Think what would have happened if people had boycotted the Firefly DVDs. I'm guessing we wouldn't have a Firefly movie in production. If Wonderfalls is released on DVD and sales a very good maybe another network will pick it up for a second season and at very least it will give exposure to the people that made such a great show. Please think before you act.

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