all kinds of love (mal extra)

POSTED BY: wytchcroft
UPDATED: Friday, August 31, 2007 19:08
VIEWED: 5723
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MOBBEX

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:52 AM

"Storm's getting worse."

I absolutely agree. Seeing River referring to Mal as "Daddy" or WORSE "Captain-Daddy" while going through an otherwise well writen and enjoyable fic makes me cringe with disgust. People say it comes from a certain scene in Safe when she says something along the lines of "Daddy will come and take us home", but where is it said that she's talking about Mal? Hell, where is it said that she even know what she is saying? People basing the whole Mal/River relationship on this one so very cryptic line just feels... weak? Petty?

*powers down* Just my thoughts, but I had to spit 'em out already.

"We'll pass through it soon enough."

NBZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:07 AM

I DO think she was referring to Mal there. But it still makes me cringe.

That whole thing was more a reference to Simon and his frame of mind of being abandoned again.

Same with calling River "Little Witch". It took me ages to get that reference ("Yeah, but she's OUR witch, so cut her the hell down" in the same episode), and it still feels wrong.

MOBBEX

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:42 AM

My cartridge fell out of my gun...

Doesn't it? "Witch" ain't exactly a cordial moniker. It's a hurtful and ignorance induced one, especially when associed to River. I mean, the girl has been messed with profusely. Calling her a witch almost sounds like blaming her for what she has become. It's just rude. I just don't see Mal calling River that. Jayne, perhaps, but Mal, nowaaaï!

PLATONIST

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:36 AM

I think River was referring to Mal as Daddy in Safe, because like HE DOES RETURN FOR THEM. She seems fairly confident in knowing that.
No worries for her.

Captain Daddy makes me cringe too, but for other reasons and a differing conotation. I think that their relationship, post Miranda, could become antagonistic, and a power struggle may develop.

We may be paying to much attention to MAL'S WORDS, instead of her reaction, which is almost having no affect what so ever. A slight grin? is my best description. It is certainly not gratitude or contrition.

River has the ability to take that ship (we've seen that already) and meet any agenda willing or not. She is subject to behavioral conditioning which includes power of suggestion as we witness in the Tam Sessions. I don't like when her character is suger-coated or domesticated in any context. She is a not only a traumatized adolescent, but also a trained weapon. And she won't be house broken.
...scary thought for all you parents of teenagers.

Joss consistently used her as a plot device and at the end of the CE commentary jokes that if she wants to be Captain of Serenity...she'll have to wait for the sequel.

NBZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:07 PM

Very interesting post. We could discuss this for weeks. :)

Quote:
Captain Daddy makes me cringe too, but for other reasons and a differing connotation. I think that their relationship, post Miranda, could become antagonistic, and a power struggle may develop.

I always thought the pseudo-power-struggle type scenario will be against Simon. A continuance of what we got in the BDM. (two guesses where River's loyalties will lie... or will they? maybe) "Pseudo" because Mal owns the boat. He can kick anyone off if and when he wishes, unless under duress.

Manipulative(also manipulated), murderous and behaviourally conditioned maybe, but still crazy to boot (and she genuinely dislikes violence. Something that CAN be overcome though.) I doubt she will ever be sane enough to become captain and have people follow her for any length of time (willingly or not). She is not omniscient, nor omnipotent.

I see the "I'm alright" bit in Serenity as she has got what happened in the BDM out of her, not totally sane. basically she is where she was at the start of the BDM, or the end of OiS. No longer traumatised by Miranda.

As for the next captain I will have it as Zoe. And I will sort of go against the grain and suggest she will be a good captain. (I even have an episode planned out... any takers for the plot bunny? free to a good home.)

Quote:
We may be paying to much attention to MAL'S WORDS, instead of her reaction, which is almost having no affect what so ever. A slight grin? is my best description. It is certainly not gratitude or contrition.

No idea what scene(s) you are referring to. Sorry. (I don't think he actually calls her "little witch" outside of fanfic...)

For what it is worth, while not much interaction takes place between Mal and River in a form of canon, I do believe there is some warmth in there.

You can class the start of Safe as River being inside Mal's head too. ('til the ship flies off. Then she goes into Simon's.) Best way to explain more of her speak apart from the Rosie bit's, where she is inside Rosie's.

Why Mal's? in The Train Job, she is on the catwalk when Jayne says that Mal ain't stupid. He has a move he ain't made yet.

Actually there are a few times in the series it is possible that River is in different crew members heads. In Ariel she leads Simon and Jayne to Mal and Zoe, not to an open exit. In Shindig, Jayne asks for a diversion, we get one. A few others too.

PLATONIST

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:08 PM

Yeah, anything to do with River and her abilities could be discussed for weeks.

She's a hard one to interpretate, because her powers and demons surfaced at the same time she actually became a character instead of being the plot device. We saw many sides of her, in a short period of time.

To me that is why it is so hard to predict her behavior, post Miranda. She is the sweet young dancing girl, the traumatized reader teen, and the killing machine. They all dwell within her.

And at what point does she become independent from her brother and start fighting her own battles? Including, if needed, acting on her own interests and agenda, like what we saw in the film when she escapes to the bridge.

And which part of her would call Mal, "Captain Daddy", hopefully none.

NBZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Yeah, anything to do with River and her abilities could be discussed for weeks.

She's a hard one to interpretate, because her powers and demons surfaced at the same time she actually became a character instead of being the plot device. We saw many sides of her, in a short period of time.

True. She is the most open to interpretation out of all the characters. Saying that, she did have a personality before hand, so not everything can go.

Quote:
To me that is why it is so hard to predict her behavior, post Miranda. She is the sweet young dancing girl, the tramatized reader teen, and the killing machine. They all dwell within her.

She also killed in War Stories. I don't think there is a single point of change for her, but a slow process of gaining control over her own life, some aspects of which coming on faster than others.

Quote:
And at what point does she become indepentent from her brother and start fighting her own battles? Including, if needed, acting on her own interests and agenda, like what we saw in the film when she escapes to the bridge.

Simon the people healer may flinch when meeting River the Reaver killer. He may love her, but will he be able to deal with what she did? (On an intellectual level, yes, but on an emotional level? I am not so sure.) Will she become independent or will Simon subconsciously (ever so slightly) push her away?

Quote:
And which part of her would call Mal, "Captain Daddy", hopefully none.

Never. IMO She was referencing Simon's frame of mind over being abandoned again when she said "Daddy will come". or maybe their true father will come looking for them... (no time travel/seeing the future though. I dislike those things immensely.)

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, August 31, 2007 7:08 PM

i agree that any 'progress' in River will be gradual - i always love the fact that she has so many sides to explore. i think the 'Captain daddy' thing is a nightmare - literally! that's why i put it in Mal's!

I am interested in how other people would perceive River's abilities - e.g - SPOILER:

Select to view spoiler:

in a galactica firefly crossover - next project due soon - would people see her as, basically, a cylon - at least on first impressions of her strength, combat skills etc... ???

i love the flexibility in her - the whole tone of her story can hinge around which side of Riveris being seen...

as for Simon - well his desire to 'people heal' could have a darkside too...

make someone a browncoat today / don't drive nobody away

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