Jayne - more than guns and muscles?
POSTED BY: SpaceAnJL
UPDATED: Sunday, September 2, 2007 08:28
VIEWED: 12779
PAGE 4 of 5
"Won't read" them?!
(Sits patiently tapping fingers and feet, with occasional throat clearings and watch checking...)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity...
I think that was more over having his death mean something than having changed in any way. Just like in Jaynestown he found that kid's death disturbing. He is not made of stone. He does have some feelings. Which make him him.
Apart from that I doubt Jayne "grew" at all in The BDM - except for him finally meeting some reavers.
In a situation of violence you can generally count of Jayne - even when he is drugged up to his eyeballs. Totally in character and no real change IMO.
Did Book's death hit Jayne? Probably. Will it scar him for the rest of his life? probably not.
(All IMO because I am know to get these types of things wrong...)
Ok...seems logical
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I agree with the child/dog mindset theory that some people have with Jayne. Yes, he might grow. But, as I said earlier, he'd have to have good reason to. And he won't grow completly. He'll still his kid/dog characteristics.
I don't think he'd have that army of rug rats, though. He might like his women, but I don't think he'd be able to marry one. For Jayne, women are in three catagories: whores; kaylees, who he'd want but not be able to have; or too scary to think about (go zoe!). At least that's my theory.
River: "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I believe we did see enormous growth from Jayne in Serenity.
I bet that whore in Heart of Gold saw enormous growth from him.
Jayne; more than guns and muscles - man parts too!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Since some people that see Jayne as a child, I have a question. Do you also see Saffron as a little girl?
(Not making any point, just curious)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Jaynesgirl212:
Look at the way he was right at Rivers side during the beggining of the BDM when River starts pitching a fit about the reavers.
Even putting himself in harms way to bring Zoe back to (somewhat) safety in the final battle, when he could have just left her out there to die.
Gonna play devil's advocate here:
Not for nothing, but these two instances don't necessarily show Jayne being altruistic.
Jayne likes his life. Jayne wants to survive. River pitching a fit while they're pulling a heist makes things not go smooth. Also, he's a little scared of her and when the psychic starts having a fit, Jayne's smart enough to know that something might be wrong and that "something" might affect him in a negative way.
And pulling Zoe back on the line? Why would he leave their most capable fighter behind? Zoe was wounded, yes, but she wasn't out of the fight, if you recall. A wounded Zoe is still more useful in a battle than, say, Kaylee. (Not to diss Kaylee, I love Kaylee, but we all know fighting is not her strong suit.)
Not saying your interpretation of Jayne's actions is wrong, just saying that they *could* be interpreted differently.
Also, what NBZ was saying about change: I whole-heartedly agree. Some people can change that late in life. Most people don't. Not even for loved ones.
Jayne could change. If he really *wanted* to. If he actually recognized that he was flawed and needed to do something about it.
Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.
Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
But this is the point! Jayne doesn't need to change. Just show parts of his character that we haven't seen that much of to date.
I think Jayne could be faithful. Because that would be 'his' woman. He could be loyal to the crew, because they are also 'his'. If you posit that Jayne thinks in those absolute terms, all you have to do is to be on the right side of the 'mine' and 'everybody-else-who-don't-matter-a-cuss' divide.
It's the kind of mindset that keeps you alive in a very harsh world. It's simplistic, but it's not childish. And it's not necessarily flawed.
Granted, he doesn't seem to have a great deal of education. I should imagine that that is a luxury you can only enjoy with time and cash, if you aren't Core. (And remember that the Tams are very wealthy folk; even without the brains, they aren't everyday Core.) And equally, introspection, speculation upon your place in the 'Verse, is something you don't have a deal of time for when folks are shooting at you. It's not a trait he needs to go picking up, either. Jayne having a crisis of conscience when there's someone needs hitting might not be too healthy for anyone.
However, he has all the life skills you really need in their environment. Watch the body language when there is work to be done. He locks down, gets focussed. All the weights? - another weapon he's taking good care of. Not a strategist, but perhaps more than a blunt force weapon.
I will use my own words here - 'If Zoe is Mal's strong right hand, then Jayne is his left hook.' Mal doesn't hesitate to use him, to extract info, to intimidate, to provide covering fire. And Jayne whines, grumbles and does what Mal tells him. Mostly.
'Knows his place, and it’s behind Mal, watching that the man don’t get them all screwed over, being noble and decent and all that gorram foolin‘.'
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Since some people that see Jayne as a child, I have a question. Do you also see Saffron as a little girl?
(Not making any point, just curious)
this is actually a really interesting question - that can be taken on a number of levels...
(ok, gulp, so...) Jayne is presented as pretty much giving in to a sort of primal self (an Id maybe) which in the 'verse is not necessarily a bad thing since naturalness equates with freedom...
However with freedom (as Joss points out in all his series) comes responsibilty for action - choices. Jayne has the choice to betray Simon, for example, it's not an 'in the moment' thing.
the choice is not a good one. the arguement that he was just being true to himself falls down. similarly he is a 'Big Damn Hero' but why?? because he loves violence - he is a mercenary - he was never an independant.
So he may end up on the 'right' side for the 'wrong' reasons. (BDM/Heart of Gold)
His actions in general can then perhaps be seen as being in 'BAD FAITH' - from an existential point of view (yep Mal and Faith) which makes him an adult.
Saffron may be seen in the same light - initially a 'wayward child' figure - the girl can't help it... (she would certainly play on that fact to manipulate a 'mark'!)
there are though strong pointers in Trash that in fact she is pychologically patterned - making the same CHOICE do be 'evil' over and over again. This act of bad faith/irresponsibility - a failure to see past her conditioning or addictive behaviour (whichever you favour as motivation) again can only be done by an adult.
However - another level.
Depends on whether you see the characters in F.F. as sufficiently grown up and complexly defined (written).
the simplistic - mechanical behaviour of characters in fairy stories often marks them out as being (effectively) children, with little grasp of the ramifications of their actions or the realities of their socio-political environents. e.g. STAR WARS (despite Lucas banging on about Anakin failing 'to choose') but are the charaters in F.F comparable (personally despite the genre elements and cartoon comedic moments i think no, F.F. is much 'grown up' as is Galactica)
critics are mixed in their verdict when it comes to Heroes in popular culture.
are they as adult as they should be?
are we 'childish' for finding qualities in these fictions??
scattered scattered thoughts. sorry for such a LONG post.
still shiny
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
But this is the point! Jayne doesn't need to change. Just show parts of his character that we haven't seen that much of to date.
I think Jayne could be faithful. Because that would be 'his' woman. He could be loyal to the crew, because they are also 'his'. If you posit that Jayne thinks in those absolute terms, all you have to do is to be on the right side of the 'mine' and 'everybody-else-who-don't-matter-a-cuss' divide.
+1
In Jaynestown, Jayne more or less stands up for "He ain't Crew and I hate his guts" Simon in the standoff with Stitch Hessian.
That is also another similarity between him and Mal - those who are theirs matter. Noone else does. Granted Mal does cast his net a little wider, but not much. (Same with education. Mal seems to be more educated than Jayne, but probably not too much more. His saving grace is that Jayne blurts his thoughts out faster.)
@wytchcroft - it is all interesting. I think we are long overdue another encounter - one where Saffron is on the back foot. just to keep things interesting.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
I think we are long overdue another encounter - one where Saffron is on the back foot. just to keep things interesting.
i have a cunning plan...
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME