To save America, we need another 9/11
POSTED BY: CrevanReaver
UPDATED: Thursday, May 23, 2024 06:04
VIEWED: 15024
PAGE 7 of 16
Quote:Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
Quote:Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
Quote:I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.
You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
I wasn't being treated different than everyone else. Everyone that day was getting the form, I watched. Most of the sheep signed it. I refused, and turned it in telling the receptionist that the form was giving implied consent based on the phrasing, that I would be willing to provide a statement acknowledging they believed what was there to be true and what they 'had' to do; but that I felt it was unconstitutional and that they should not comply with such requests. They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.
Quote:No,it merely says if you help anyone who has been found to be 'marked', then you can be 'marked'; it does not provide any limit to how many 'layers back' you peel the onion.Quote:Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29739
for the discussions in these forums, and it has a link to the EO, which you may read.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
Quote:'suspected' terrorist... maybe that doesn't worry you. In the past, it would have had to been proven to a relatively objective judical review; now it doesn't. All they have to do is pick either party on either end of the phone and simply state 'we suspect'.Quote:I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.
You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
Wiretap is now the common interpretation of 'using' those tools. Unless you maintain that under the Clinton administration they -were- listening to arbitrary calls; if that is your point, please state it plainly. You will note I'm not asking for measures to be put in place to have 'Carnivore' removed, I'm simply saying they should not listen unless there is a reason. And that reason should be sustained by a court order, IMHO. If you think there's no difference between having the infrastructure in place to
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Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?
I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.
What really brought it to my attention, and you can look this stuff up yourself cause I really don't have time this morning, is something that happened in the mid-late 90s.
The FBI went on a little field trip to the Soviet Union in order to hone their unlawful domestic spying abilities, and they were practically slavering and drooling over the Soviet SORM-II internet monitoring system, to the point of being so eager to copy it here that Congress felt the need, in spite of the fact that it was *already* illegal for them to do so - to explicitly forbid them to build it, forbid them to fund it, and forbid them to ever USE it on american citizens if they ever found a way around the first two.
(Carnivore/Omnivore is basically just an updated clone of SORM-II, mind you.)
And what did they do ?
IMMEDIATELY funded it, built it, and then started using it on americans right away - violating their charter, the law, and three congressional directives, spitting in the face of Congress, just like the DOJ is doing right now over the whole subpeano issue... man, if you or I told the courts were to stuff a subpeano, we'd be staring down the barrels of a SWAT team before you could even blink.
The Patriot act may have illegally (ex-post facto) and retroactively granted them permission, but for a long time prior to that the FBI was operating completely rogue in clear defiance of their charter and assigned function, and it's anything but the first time our alphabet agencies have done so - the church commission and FISA were somewhat of an attempt to tighten the leash on these rabid maniacs, because in hindsight the damage they do is far and away beyond anything that ever happened here since shermans march, and that includes 9-11, cause if you tally up the death toll from their own actions, it does in fact exceed that, and it doesn't even come close to the amount of economic damage and ruined lives and careers under COINTELPRO and other assorted programs of that nature.
They've almost never even performed their assigned function, choosing to instead harrass, intimidate, spy on and ever murder the very people they are supposed to be protecting - they are a poison within us, the arsenic in the states kool-aid, and ten times the threat any terrorist organisation ever was or will be.
Any yet when they come round at appropriates time for more funding, it's handed right on over, isn't it ?
I dunno about you, but if MY guard dog started mauling peoples kids while not bothering to defend my property, I sure as hell wouldn't be patting it on the head and throwing it treats.
Yeah, it's nuts, and took a good close look at Raps crazy fortress mindset and consider that THOSE are the kind of people that operate said alphabet agencies... and are then given massive budgets with no control or oversight.
YOUR money, MY money, used to commit terrorism, against US, in the name of "keeping order".
And folks wonder why imma Anarchist....
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
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Quote:Keep in mind my intention here was to try to keep Rap on track for a discussion perhaps to a conclusion on a particular point.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?
I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.
I will grant you raise a number of concerns, worthy of additional research; and I will dig a bit later.
The point I was trying to make is that we are having further erosions of freedom. It is one thing if they listen to my conversations illegally; if I can prove they did so, in theory legal action can be taken. If they manage to legalize it, I can't even do that. I admit, what hope to I have to win such a battle even if they don't legalize it? Not much, but 'at least' I have that to stand on. Again, simply because a thing can be done does not permit them to do it. I stand by my original position stated to Rap that what I described was a further erosion; if you disagree with that, please so note.
Now, if we can get agreement on that (and I mean more with Rap, I'm reasonably confident you will agree it is a further erosion), perhaps then the next question is 'what is the correct response to this erosion?'?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.
As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....
Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.
Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......
My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....
Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....
Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Neat story Jack, thanks for sharing.
One point I'd like to make, our discussions here are clearly public; and what I choose to post here, I clearly have no expectation of privacy. There are things I will not discuss in public, and I will either refrain from discussing them, drop to PM, or email. If I feel something warrants serious privacy, it gets encrypted or uses some means where I expect privacy... like a phone call placed from my home.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy.
We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....
Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.
Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......
My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....
Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....
Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.
Nice post 6ixString...I think the vast majority of people in the Government are good and decent people, same as in the private sector. Because we only really ever hear about the bad apples, so many bad apples sometimes, it seems like everything in the world is corrupt and inept. That's why it's a good idea to keep your sense of humor handy whenever your first instinct is too get agitated....especially 'bout things and/or people you cannot do anything about. All you really can do to change anything is to vote for candidates you believe in, ones who have a track record of achievements that agree with your positions. Political promises, politically expedient flip-floppers, and opponent bashing will never help you or I one iota.
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.
As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).
We need more citizens like you! Selfless & respectful of other folks around them...I'm startin' to get a little teary-eyed here just thinking that your post has given me hope for South Florida's human noise pollution problem.
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