Reavers, what's their deal?
POSTED BY: athertonwing
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 06:24
VIEWED: 17272
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Quote:The act of taking women as brides in the spoil of war was quite common among ancient cultures. In fact wars were sometimes fought expressly to get another tribes women and or slaves. This wasn’t really done so much out of a need to violate the enemy as it was to broaden the gene pool. It may be difficult for us to understand this today, because we’re packing over 6 billion people on this planet, but that’s been relatively recent. A thousand years ago, most people lived in very isolated and small villages and tribes. And often it was necessary to bring in fresh blood to keep the number of toes constant.
Originally posted by Jared:
hmm.. so far i saw the reason for war and rape being closely connected in the simple fact that youre usually surrounded by other men. but then there might be more reasons. trying to imagine a situation where youre enemy is reduced to a body that has to be killed or at least heavily wounded women automatically become bodies that can be used. not a nice thought, but most likely a natural reaction to the situation.
Quote:That’s true. But what you are referring to is generally an act of desperation conducted under desperate circumstances. It’s not a permanent transformation. There’s little evidence of Jews becoming Nazis and remaining that way. In fact, in general, the desperate acts of captive Jews under the Nazi regime generally served to heighten the hatred for the Nazis. The impression I get from the show is that becoming a Reaver is something of a permanent transformation, which should suggest that it is a not an act of psychological desperation. Although, that may be what Whedon is going for.
Originally posted by ItsAllShiny:
Personally, I think I would kill myself, but there are people who are more doggedly stubborn about holding onto life than I am, and it doesn't take a very large leap to see them adopting the horror as a way to survive. Plus, history is rife with examples of people who have done just that because it was the only way to survive -- take most of the medical personnel in the Nazi regime, for instance. Splitting off the good and bad and adopting the bad as 'good' is a well-worn psychological/sociological process. [Ref: "The Roots of Evil: The Origins of Genocide and Other Group Violence," E. Staub, Cambridge University Press, 1989.)
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Although the concept of Reavers as being essentially pirate bands who sprung up after the war seems historically valid in our own world, I'm curious how this might work in the timeline of the Firefly verse. Primarily in that in "Serenity" when the Reavers are brought up, Simon reacts to them as if they are a sort of urban legend ('versal legend?). He's obviously heard stories/rumors, but never particularly believed they existed. While this holds water in that he is a moneyed individual from a priviledged society, and as far as we know had very little to do with the war, it also leads one to believe that the stories must have been around for quite a while in order to spread so far and wide- to exist as a legend throughout the 'verse. The show takes place what, 6 years after the end of the war? I somehow doubt it's enough time for a powerful enough urban legend/folktale to form that spread throughout space. Even Jayne has apparently never seen a Reaver ship before, but he's deathly afraid of them from their first mention. I would think that the stories would need to be around for many, many years to have developed that much widespread exposure and belief.
Anyone with more detailed knowledge on pirate history might be able to help out here, and it's not me. If you are out there, any ideas how long it took for traditional pirates to become a commonly known or feared concept in our world? Moreover, was there a specific rash of piracy or the like that sprang up after the American Civil War, and might have served as Joss's inspiration in creating the Reavers?
You got a wife? All I got is that dumbass
stick sounds like its raining.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
Only problem is, that theory has some holes in it. Namely the "survivor" found onboard the derelict in "Bushwhacked". That guy didn't seem to have had any surgery done on him -- as evidenced by the fact that he was running around less than two weeks after his ship went missing. And there's very little voluntary about watching savages cut your family and friends apart.
I don't know if this has already been commented on, but that guy they found was a victim of the reavers, not a reaver himself. The original theory at the top of this thread could still be valid. The 'gone wrong' experiments could have overtaken the ship and killed all of them except that one whom they made watch while his family were killed. Then they left, and he was trying to turn himself into one of them. But he wasn't one.
I don't really think that the reavers have turned the way they have by unnatural causes though. I don't think they are even human to begin with. I don't mean they are 'monsters' but I just think they are cdifferent from us.
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Quote:
The act of taking women as brides in the spoil of war was quite common among ancient cultures. In fact wars were sometimes fought expressly to get another tribes women and or slaves. This wasn’t really done so much out of a need to violate the enemy as it was to broaden the gene pool.
I think you give the people of ancient cultures too much credit when it comes to their knowledge of genetics and inbreeding. Marrying first cousins was not only common, it was often more or less a requirement (and still is in many parts of the world.) Better mixing of the gene pool was a side effect of this kind of thing, but I have to think it wasn't the main purpose: mixing happened regardless, and even if it didn't, there are large parts of the world where the genetic benefits to breeding with someone who isn't traceably related to you are far from well known.
The more reasonable explanation is this: say you're a man living in a tribe of 40ish people. Maybe you're just getting to be old enough to marry, or maybe your wife just died, or maybe you just want a 2nd or 5th wife. There aren't going to be a whole lot of women available for you to marry, whether the custom is to marry within your tribe, or to marry women from 1 or several neighboring allied tribes, and there's no guarantee that the few available women won't go to someone else.
Now, you have a few friends/relatives in the same situation. And there's this other tribe that has an obvious vulnerability that will allow you to kill off the men fairly easily (or maybe not even that easily--some of you may die, but you can't say which ones, and you're almost guaranteed to be on the winning side). If you end up victorious, there's maybe 10 new women that you can split between you and your friends/relatives.
Women are often viewed as a valuable commodity. In fact, possibly the most valuable commodity. For anything else (food, water, clothing, etc.) you get to a point that you have all you could possibly ever use in your current situation, and more food, etc., is worthless to you. But if you have one wife, you can have n children with her. If you have 2 wives, you can have 2n children, and so on.
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Quote:That’s true. But what you are referring to is generally an act of desperation conducted under desperate circumstances. It’s not a permanent transformation. There’s little evidence of Jews becoming Nazis and remaining that way. In fact, in general, the desperate acts of captive Jews under the Nazi regime generally served to heighten the hatred for the Nazis. The impression I get from the show is that becoming a Reaver is something of a permanent transformation, which should suggest that it is a not an act of psychological desperation. Although, that may be what Whedon is going for.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:
Originally posted by ItsAllShiny:
Personally, I think I would kill myself, but there are people who are more doggedly stubborn about holding onto life than I am, and it doesn't take a very large leap to see them adopting the horror as a way to survive. Plus, history is rife with examples of people who have done just that because it was the only way to survive -- take most of the medical personnel in the Nazi regime, for instance. Splitting off the good and bad and adopting the bad as 'good' is a well-worn psychological/sociological process. [Ref: "The Roots of Evil: The Origins of Genocide and Other Group Violence," E. Staub, Cambridge University Press, 1989.)
I think most people under the circumstances described in the show would not have an overwhelming need to join the Reavers to deal with what they've experienced, but would be filled with a raging need for vengeance, and woe betide the first Reaver who unties them (try the thought experiment of seeing your nearest-and-dearest tortured, consumed and/or killed and I think you'll see what I mean). Striking back, not identification, appears to me to be the natural reaction. There are circumstances in which victims of violence and oppression do things to appease and even ape their oppressors, but as Finn says, this generally only serves to heighten the victim's hatred of the oppressor. Let the tables be turned-- let the concentration camp be liberated, for example-- and the most beaten-down prisoner will often rise up and be the most vicious in attacking the former guards.
Maybe it's just me, but I do think it is "a very large leap to see them adopting the horror as a way to survive." I don't think the Reavers were very well thought out.
Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!
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how about a misunderstanding coupled with already being out of your mind. after going through all this, you are discovered, attacked, knocked out, locked away, tied to a table and have a group of people pressing you down. sufficiently confused the difference between being operated and slaughtered might not be so clear to you. nobody really seemed to try and convince them that they are friendly and want to help. first you get hit by reavers, then by smugglers, then by alliance and all the time youre helpless until you snap.
if he really couldnt tell his "saviours" from reavers, his imitation might make sense, as a way to not be discovered. babbling about cattle, maybe repeating what he heard, self mutilation to look like them and not be discovered. thinking it didnt work when ending up on that op table and trying to fight his way out.
still not really working out too well, especially since it all happenend in a very short time. and how would mal know so much about it? he seems to know that he will start acting like them. thats making the above theory kind of pointless.
and i have my doubts that after buffy and angel joss would go for "they found something evil at the edge of the galaxy and it consumed them".
he doesnt seem like the kind of writer who is just making something up because it's cool, so i'll trust he has a perfectly fine explanation for them. and even if its not 100% water tight, scientifically accurate or historically correct, i can live with that as it's still fiction and maybe in 500 years humanity will have changed on a psychological level, too.
think of the people believing that violent video games and movies will turn children into brutal killers.
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I also thought of them as some sort of cult that has taken thier belifes WAAAAY off the deep end. It allows them to keep order within thier society, and allows for them to commit all sorts of nastyness on the outside since anyone who isnt a Reaver isnt 'pure'.
we also may have been only part of the story about Reavers, sort of the Dread Pirate Roberts thing. Sure they are mean and nasty and will kill ya as soon as look at ya, but they have amped up thier rep to make thier job easier.
Just thinkin....
No power in the 'Verse can stop me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jared:
and i have my doubts that after buffy and angel joss would go for "they found something evil at the edge of the galaxy and it consumed them".
Oooo, THAT would be kinda cool, something I didnt think of, sort of a Babylon 5 type of idea.
No power in the 'Verse can stop me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthVegas:
Oooo, THAT would be kinda cool, something I didnt think of,
cool, maybe. but thats why it has been done to death and would even remind a little too much about event horizon. so part of me is still expecting him to stay away from supernatural or even mystic stuff. though some of the things river did seem already beyond the results of pure science.
to hijack it a little:
i like the theory that our subconsciousness is able to perform incredible things, even to the extend to blame it when someone is "foretelling" something. its great in picking up details and information that our conscious part is completely missing. able to do the math it might result in a gut feeling that something is about to happen, because our sc actually DOES know it has to happen.
one step further connected to things said in ariel. if they were tearing down the wall between consciousness and subconsciousness it might explain quite a few things: walking around the ship like in a dream in objects in space, knowing things she shouldnt know, talking "crazy" (actually, when im really tired and about to fall asleep, when you could argue that my sc is taking over, i guess if you read my thoughts they would sound a little like river).
only problem is that some things look more like good old mind reading and adding that ability to our sc might be going a little far.
but back to the reavers: they look a little like lovecraft in space. see too much of them and you lose your mind. kind of lead me to the point of finding something evil in outer space. but have a look at our world and tell me the darkest demons arent deep inside us. no need to look for them at the edge of the universe.
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Yep, that is what I mean about simplicity being more elegant. We can make up the most evil forms of behavior on our own. There are plenty of instances where the apallingly barbaric Reaver rituals discussed by Mal and Zoe were considered pretty normal by particular groups of people. Of course the victims of said people had plenty to say about them later.
"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?"
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