RE:

POSTED BY: ECAmber
UPDATED: Thursday, November 22, 2007 01:16
VIEWED: 11320
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ECAMBER

Friday, July 6, 2007 2:25 AM

Not because he wanted to be a victim, acted like a victim or had a victim mentality... but because he got screwed time and time again and NEVER got paid back karmicly (not a word, I know).

Just take a look at all the ways he got screwed over:

~ had a massive crush on Cordelia that was returned and it ended up fizzing out in under 5 seconds
~ was pretty much a pansy at fighting from Buffy to the second season of Angel
~ got fired for circumstances out of his control and was basically accepted (initially) for being a pathetic loner who didn't really want to be alone
~ fell in love with the girl who was perfect for him and then tried to kill her in a magically induced misogynistic rage... which completely ruined his ability to take a chance with her
~ was abandoned by his friends for doing something for a really goddamn good reason (yeah, it backfired, but seriously if it hadn't he would have been a hero. and it didn't backfire because of something he did).
~ made all the hard choices and took all the consequences without once being a whiny bitch even though no one acknowledged or thanked him for his sacrifices (no one at Angel Inc thanked him for feeding Angel after being the one dedicated to actually finding him)
~ was so nonjudgmentl and respected people so much that he would help them do something, even if he disagreed with it (like helping Fred kill her professor) and then get absolutely no acknowledgment that he did anything (if anything he was even more estranged because of it)
~ got all of a whopping 20 minutes (air time) with the love of his life before she was taken utterly away (seriously, did he even get a single night of sin with her?)
~ died before actually accomplishing his mission (Illyria did it for him)

Seriously, Wesley deserved a hell of a lot less crap than he got and not once did he ever really get something but grief and pain for doing what he thought was best.

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, July 6, 2007 2:51 PM

Agree with you for the most point there. On the other hand, look at the things that Wesley did accomplish. Yes, he started out as a bit of a whiny prat at first, but look at the man he became. A confident, brave man, willing to make hard decisions for the good of all. Yes, Wesley did get shafted more than a few times, but he became a better person for it.

******************************************************

"Right! Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!"

NEEDY

Friday, July 6, 2007 4:53 PM

All of your points are right on the mark, and funnily enough, I think you've summed up all the reasons why Wesley was my favourite character. There never was a character that displayed the shades of grey more than Wesley.
His journey was tragic but I think his reward, as small as it may seem, was knowing that he had gone through a hell of a lot, had hit rock bottom a few times, but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.
Might not seem like much, but Joss never likes any of his characters to have perfect happiness (unless its gonna end up losing someone their soul so that they can wreak more havoc)

I'm just reminded of something Angel said to Kate in Epiphany, that "if nothing that we do matters, then all that matters is what we do"

I think Wesley would have saw some victory in knowing that despite everything, he came out of it a hero (albeit not a surviving one)

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MALBADINLATIN

Friday, July 6, 2007 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

NEEDY

Friday, July 6, 2007 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

Sorry if I spoiled it for you, but I didnt bother using spoiler space cos his death was already mentioned in the opening post

If its any consolation, his death is not like... I was gonna compare it to other Whedon shows, but I dont want to throw out other spoilers.
Lets put it this way, he gets a decent death.
As for who else bites the bullet...
Me not saying!

-----
Needy. Male Companion: Chosen One?
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AURAPTOR

Saturday, July 7, 2007 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
but came back from the brink, fought the good fight and in the end died a hero.

As a newcomer to Angel...pretty much watching the TNT reruns and seein it for the first time...I'd like to say "Not him too!" Do any of the people who aren't already dead survive this show fer christs sake!? Wait! don't answer that.

Welcome to the 'verse that is Whedon. One thing I've come to learn, the hard way, is summed up by the man himself, Joss.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy.

Watch, enjoy and fall in love w/ Joss's characters at your own peril.

As for Wesley, I didn't think it was he who had helped Fred off her professor. I recall it was Gunn, and that led to their eventual split.

Wes's hooking up w/ Lilah was a pretty good trade off after having been isolated and abandoned by his friends.

( Granted, he never got to 'know' Fred, which really sums up the theme of this thread )

And then there was the satisfaction of capturing and 'keeping' Justine locked up in a closet. Perhaps Wesley's best line ever... " I'll take away your bucket. " Friggin classic!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

COPILOT

Saturday, July 7, 2007 6:40 PM

When Joss likes an actor he tortures their character. At least I think I remember reading that somewhere. Love he has lots of love.

An I carried such a torch

ECAMBER

Sunday, July 8, 2007 1:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Wesley, I didn't think it was he who had helped Fred off her professor. I recall it was Gunn, and that led to their eventual split.

Just thinking of how Fred went to Wesley for help with finding "vengence," how he was the one that got her a plan (the crossbow and portal) and drove her there, even offering to come in as support. She wanted to be the one to do it so she told him no.

I don't think Gunn helped her exactly, she was all set to go with her plan and take the consequences for it. He just jumped in and did the killing before she could to protect her from those consequences (which didn't go so well).

THESOMNAMBULIST

Sunday, July 8, 2007 8:20 PM

Yes very much a victim. I agree. Partly due to his inability to speak his mind when he should. Led to all manner of ills.

One should never hesitate - especially when it comes to affairs of the heart.

www.cirqus.com

EMBERS

Sunday, July 8, 2007 9:48 PM

I have to start by saying I adore Wesley, he was a brilliant character and I still want to see his crazy control freak Father raise him from the dead to become zombie Wesley....

BUT Wesley had some deeply held flaws that caused a lot of his problems:

On BtVS:
He came to Sunnydale and thought that he knew better than Giles and/or Buffy even though he had never had any field experience whatsoever.

Wesley decided to judge Faith as harshly as possible and over-rode Gile's (and Angel's) way of handling the situation by calling in the Watcher's Council and forcing Faith over to the dark side.

Wesley was an inept fighter who not only couldn't hold his own in any situation, he managed to make things worse for others (whining for help on Graduation Day when more severely injured people needed help more urgently).

please don't get me wrong here: I was already a HUGE Wesley fan, seeing him as a comedic element, and a character who managed to do real damage thereby moving ahead the plot beautifully!

I think Wes' Summer on his own as a lonely Rogue Demon Hunter did a lot for him... but it didn't change him 100%

Wesley remained very judgmental and ready to believe that he was the only one with all the answers. When he read that about Angel killing his son (oops... big spoilers here...why are people afraid of being spoiled reading this thread anyway?) he never discussed it with the group,
he was willing to work with Angel's known enemies rather than even discuss it with the people he worked with!
Wesley created his own Karma...
even with Fred:
Wes might have thought he lost his chance with Fred because of Billy's misogynistic thing,
but in reality it was Wesley's own patronizing behavior which frustrated Fred and made her feel that she wasn't taken seriously.

But all this is what made him such a great character, he was so deeply flawed and he did come so far, and suffered so much. Joss was very cruel to take Fred away just the second when Wes & Fred finally connected....
(kinda like how Joss immediately killed Tara the second she made up with Willow)
(and the way Joss will undoubtedly make Inara suffer a horrible painful death as soon as she hooks up with Mal)

So I wouldn't call Wesley a victim, because I think in many ways he suffered the consequences of his own actions... but he did have to suffer from them big time. No doubt about it, he was a multi-layered complex character.

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