Reavers, what's their deal?

POSTED BY: athertonwing
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 06:24
VIEWED: 17272
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KUGELBLITZ

Friday, March 26, 2004 11:52 PM

I favor the simplest explanation. The Reavers are mean people. Not brain wacked super soldiers, or virus infected psychos. They are just plain mean. In the great Yin and Yang, they are probably THE balance to the alliance.

"We are exporting democracy because we have all of this unused democracy lying around at home. Why not make some money doing it?"

PEACE

Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:30 AM

For me there have always been problems with the Reavers. Joss is correct in placing them on the frontier of space after a civil war; piracy often springs up in the wake of civil disturbances or wars, when weapons are plentiful and civil authority weak; for example, SE Asian waters today. What bothers me is the extreme way in which they are portrayed, and the methods they use.

Pirates historically have often been cruel, take-no-prisoners sorts, and many have been damaged men (and women) caught in the wake of traumatic social upheaval; but they have also shown considerable thought in how they operate. Modern pirates, in fact, often have high-rolling backers, employ sophisticated methods of attack, and understand how to decoy and deceive the various maritime authorities in order to launder the cargoes and even the ships they steal. Pirates in the Caribbean in the late 17th and early 18th Centuries usually had bases of operation (e.g. Port Royal on Jamaica) and conducted their affairs with other pirate vessels in a fairly orderly manner (if there were disputes between pirate crews, the captains of all the vessels in port would often sit in council together to adjudicate the matter). All of this is worlds away from the animalistic image we get of the Reavers from the episodes. It is an important point that a ship, esp. a spaceship, implies a base, repair facilities, and backers-- even a pirate ship needs repairs and upgrades and fresh fruit (Heinlein made this point in "Citizen of the Galaxy"). Ships run on the Reaver plan probably wouldn't last a month.

And then there's the Reaver recruitment methods. Frankly, the "torture them until they join us" method never rang true for me. It might work, but not in a matter of hours or days; we're talking about a method of brainwashing that would take months to break down the ingrained habits and attitudes of a lifetime; and then it would not work on everyone. Historical pirates, esp. those on the Spanish Main, often employed very rational methods of recruitment. When they took a ship, they would usually kill the captain, because he would be the most likely to resist to the end. Any specialist crew members, such as cooks, carpenters, sailmakers, etc., were usually forced to join the pirates, with special priviledges, extra shares and a promise that they'd be released after a certain term of service (a promise that was usually kept). Oridnary sailors, believe it or not, often clamored to join the pirates, despite the risk of hanging-- the life of a pirate was much more free and easy than that of an ordinary sailor on a merchantman of the era.

The only way the Reavers as they are in the series would work for me is if they were some sort of religious cult-- and there have been plenty just as violent and grotesque in history. But nothing in the episodes has set that up.

I hope Joss rethinks the Reavers if he uses them in the movie.

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kugelblitz:
I favor the simplest explanation. The Reavers are mean people. Not brain wacked super soldiers, or virus infected psychos. They are just plain mean. In the great Yin and Yang, they are probably THE balance to the alliance.

That’s hardly a simple explanation. “Mean” people might maim, torture and otherwise inflict disfiguring pain on other people, but they aren’t likely to perform the same actions on themselves. That’s simply contrary to human nature, and it’s self-defeating, because one can hardly be a successful “pirate” if one is wreaked with pain from self-inflicted wounds.

BENSHAHN

Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:34 AM

The “predecessors of River” idea is an interesting one, but there is nothing in the actual series to support it. So far, there are two possibilities that are based on what is in the series.
1. The Reavers are exactly what we've been told they are
2. The Reavers are former Alliance soldiers tortured into madness by the Independents.
In Safe, there is a possible allegory for this. The young River talks about a pretend Alliance group that is cut off by the Independents. The Alliance members resort to cannibalism
Mal knows more than most about the Reavers.
When the survivor in Bushwacked mutilates himself, the Alliance officer says he hasn't seen that kind of torture since the war and he says it with disgust. He is accusing Mal, who he knows to be a former Independent of doing it.
This idea of the Reavers and Mal’s possible knowledge or involvement in it fits nicely with Whedon's writing style; wanting to surprise the viewer with the unexpected, main characters with dark backgrounds, and the theme of redemption. When Mal says," Nothing worse than a monster thinks he's right with god", what if he knows this because he's also talking about himself?

ITSALLSHINY

Saturday, March 27, 2004 1:53 AM

Quote:
And then there's the Reaver recruitment methods. Frankly, the "torture them until they join us" method never rang true for me. It might work, but not in a matter of hours or days; we're talking about a method of brainwashing that would take months to break down the ingrained habits and attitudes of a lifetime; and then it would not work on everyone.

Well, they'd just eat the ones who didn't show signs of breaking really fast!

--------------
Zoe: "If they board us, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing. And if we are very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

CAPNRAHN

Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:02 PM

My twopenny join-in:

I feel the Reavers are in Joss's 'Verse are much like the Fremen in Frank Herbert's Dune 'Verse.

Tough nasty scrappers that have a myth of them that is based on fact, yet not fully on the nose with the details of the gory series of legends that encompass those known as Reavers.

They could be comprised of various 'special' people, much like River or other oddities. With attitudes closer in relation to the more agressive Native Americans and most definitly the Mongols. The combination of both real cultures really illustrates what I see as the potential Reaver worldview and their understanding of yin-yang of full spectrum of life. That means that Death and its ilk is the stuff of everyday life for the Reaver, not to be feared. They probably are taught that fear is the mind-killer and panic will ALWAYS kill. So all who 'become' Reavers are taught to confront fear standing firmly on their feet. In addition, I can also see them trained on how to CAUSE panic in their enemies.

How iz that?

"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"

JARED

Saturday, March 27, 2004 3:50 PM

i think that part about "cattle" might be important. if for some reason you stop thinking of humans as different from animals, as "special" then it wont be long until need and desperation will do the rest. crashland in a place, where you cant find food and if your will to survive is strong enough it will defeat any morals that keep you from eating the others. flesh is flesh, you can eat it and stay alive or dont and be food for the others.

and there you have it. there arent any cows floating in space, but humans will do. natural ressources, too scared to fight back. self mutilation probably helps with that, or maybe that way of life actually DID spawn some sick rituals and beliefs. get rid of all your moral and ethics, do what you have to do to survive and satisfy your needs and youre probably pretty close to reavers.

of course there is one little problem: if you need food, clothes and sex and attack ships, then they should have "normal" food on board and wear normal clothes. so unless youre so many that you need more than that or dont find enough victims to make use of EVERYTHING you can get theres no reason to eat and skin them. and nothing should stop them from having sex among themselves (except maybe looking for something different and maybe a "partner" thats not looking like a walking tool kit).

if they have been out there for several generations, how long would it take to arrive at one thats nothing but intelligent animals. they wont forget how to fly ships or "hunt" in a pack and pass that knowledge on, because its vital. humanity isnt, it just gets in the way.

still wouldnt explain how just watching them can cause you to become like them (even if that might be on a smaller scale and just imitation). id rather expect the opposite, disgust and hatred letting you lose your own ethics and humanity when dealing with reavers. it would take far too much time to convince survivors of their ways. though it might be along the lines of "be strong and in control or be cattle waiting to be slaughtered and at the mercy of others". a little like nice guys becoming jerks when they are fed up with watching them get the girls ,-)

ITSALLSHINY

Saturday, March 27, 2004 8:20 PM

In all this discussion about the dynamics of Reavers, their origins, etc., I think we're forgetting the most important thing -- humans have a viceral fear of being prey animals ourselves.

Seriously, if you don't agree, just try this experiment: Sit down and imagine what it would be like to be eaten alive. You're trying to get away -- adrenaline pumping -- the beast swipes at you and brings you down -- you try to struggle, but loss of blood is making you weak -- your flesh is being ripped, tugged, bitten off in chunks -- you begin to go into shock -- finally you succumb to unconsciousness and death. (If any of you don't get the willies and an almost uncontrollable urge to look over your shoulder, then man, are you a robot!)

And Reavers, thanks to Joss, are the ultimate predatory monster because they eat people alive, abuse the people and their corpses in unspeakable ways, are really out there lurking in the dark, and they have the intelligence of humans. When you ponder the notion of someone breaking from watching their friends and family raped and eaten alive (or vice versa) for weeks on end, all the while knowing that your turn is coming, remember that fear we all have of being eaten alive -- how tough do you really think you are?

Personally, I think I would kill myself, but there are people who are more doggedly stubborn about holding onto life than I am, and it doesn't take a very large leap to see them adopting the horror as a way to survive. Plus, history is rife with examples of people who have done just that because it was the only way to survive -- take most of the medical personnel in the Nazi regime, for instance. Splitting off the good and bad and adopting the bad as 'good' is a well-worn psychological/sociological process. [Ref: "The Roots of Evil: The Origins of Genocide and Other Group Violence," E. Staub, Cambridge University Press, 1989.)

FIREFLYTHEMOVIE

Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:04 PM

Quote:
so unless youre so many that you need more than that or dont find enough victims to make use of EVERYTHING you can get theres no reason to eat and skin them. and nothing should stop them from having sex among themselves (except maybe looking for something different and maybe a "partner" thats not looking like a walking tool kit).

Gotta disagree here. As mentioned earlier, lots of violent cultures take trophies from their victims. It's not about not having enough clothes, it's about sewing the skins of your victims into the clothes you have.

Also, as far as cannibalism goes, (a) it's not that rare if you just count by percentage of cultures that do it on a fairly regular basis rather than number of people (the larger cultures tend to find cannibalism utterly distasteful these days), (b) it might be considered a display of machismo to eat the flesh of your fallen enemy, and (c) they have space rations on Serenity. Not overly tasty stuff. Forgetting for the moment how you feel about cannibalism (which I've already said is far from a universal aversion), would you rather have space rations or fresh meat?

And finally, sex: when's the last time you heard of reason factoring into rape? Desperation, sure, sometimes, but many rapists have plenty of opportunities for consensual sex. It's also a pretty recent thing that society hasn't considered rape of a fallen enemy acceptable. The Bible talks about what to do with conquered survivors: kill the men and non-virgin females. Take the virgins home to be your wife. The virgins had no say in the matter. Other cultures were often not quite so picky about virginity, and some just raped the women and left them to fend for themselves, but rape and warfare have gone hand in hand, probably since before we split with chimps.

JARED

Saturday, March 27, 2004 9:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflythemovie:
Gotta disagree here. As mentioned earlier, lots of violent cultures take trophies from their victims. It's not about not having enough clothes, it's about sewing the skins of your victims into the clothes you have.

good point, guess i was a little too fixed on everything they do as being need driven.

concerning cannibalism, its really not rare, considering cultures where its quite normal to eat dead relatives (or some of the organs or their ashes) or your enemies heart to get his strength (might be a common practice for reavers when i think about this babbling about being "weak".. the simple concept of strong=good and weak=unpleasant end of food chain might be their kind of thing).

hmm.. so far i saw the reason for war and rape being closely connected in the simple fact that youre usually surrounded by other men. but then there might be more reasons. trying to imagine a situation where youre enemy is reduced to a body that has to be killed or at least heavily wounded women automatically become bodies that can be used. not a nice thought, but most likely a natural reaction to the situation.

and interesting enough, watching reavers do all that to your friends and family might easily result in you wanting to do the same to them. if for some reason you cant it might cause a displacement activity(?) and instead you do it to whatever potential victim is available. much in the same way like some very sad people might lose their job and beat their wives because they cant beat their former boss.

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