We're celebrating what, again ?
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Thursday, January 9, 2025 00:43
VIEWED: 10349
PAGE 6 of 13
Quote:Several reasons. First of all, discussing anything with Frem is usually pretty difficult because he tends towards irrationalism and emotionalism. He’s basically just screaming about how awful the world is treatign him because he can’t get his way. It strikes me as being a little bit like trying to argue with a bratty eight year old, to be honest. So refuting his points is often rather frustrating at best.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why don't you refute his points instead of attacking his emotionalism as if that were his point?
Second, I don’t necessarily always disagree with his individual points; rather it is his broader theory of government oppressive that I don’t agree with. I think you should be able to sit out on your front porch and smoke a phattie (at least I think I do.) But that’s not the issue. Just because the law doesn’t allow you to do that, doesn’t mean we live under an oppressive government. In fact the government is simply responding to the will of the majority of voters. Most voters do not want certain drugs to be legal, regardless of whether I or Frem do or not. The area where I disagree with Frem is not just the irrational rhetoric, but I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way. There are 200 million other voters in this country, and in many cases I suspect it is not government that is oppressing Frem, but the People. The government is just responding to the voters, and so the government is actually a government for the people and by the people (usually). Frem's problem is that he can't except the reality that this is not the utopia he believes he was promised, but it is a lot better then most alternatives.
And 200 years ago in the United States the last thing a Black man was worried about was whether he could sit out on his porch and smoke a phattie. In order to throw this fit of his, Frem ignores an awful lot. But that’s his opinion and he’s welcome to it. And if you agree with it, then that's fine too. But I don’t have to agree with it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn, don't you ever wonder why so many independent-minded folk thing you're a boot-licker?
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Always look upstream.
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No.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!
I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I don’t think any of it means America is not worth celebrating on July 4th, do you?
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!
I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I guess I didn’t make myself clear enough, the issue here is not that there are things we don’t agree with, but rather despite these things, is America still worth celebrating? Is it?
Originally posted by SignyM:
I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Celebrating? Yes. There is much to be happy with: Woman have the vote and slaves were freed. But mindlessly celebrating? No.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams
But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government. -- Andrew Jackson,
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. -- Edmund Burke
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:What does this mean? Either you believe America is worth celebrating or you don’t, but this sounds like you’re saying that someone can celebrate America, as long as you agree with how they’re doing it or what they believe in.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Celebrating? Yes. Mindlessly celebrating? No.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You asked me my opinion and I gave it, and now you're trying to imply that I'm going to ram it down everyone's throat? Obviously not.
But I personally think that the bar the Founding Fathers set for most people is too high. Most folks want to set off fireworks and have a brewski. As long as they're comfortable they really DON'T care much about freedom. And freedom really DOES require eternal vigilance because most people with a little bit of power will use that power to gain more, and it snowballs unless others actively oppose it.
I think the FF were well aware of the trend of power concentrating into fewer and fewer hands. Beign educated historians I'm sure they were aware of the fall of the Roman Republic, as well as the excesses of monarchies. They did their best to avoid it by creating three Branches (which Cheney is not part of!
) and by creating the vote, which is a lot easier than having to shoot a government out of power. But despite all of these structural and procedural improvements, Ben Franklin was not particularly optimistic about our prospects. When asked about the form out government would take, he reputedly said "A Republic, if you can keep it".
I think we've kept the form but lost much of the substance.
PS: I think freedom is worth celebrating.
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Always look upstream.
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