We're celebrating what, again ?

POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Thursday, January 9, 2025 00:43
VIEWED: 10349
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CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 4:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Chrisisall: If they're youngish, I guess you're correct...

Great post otherwise my man, and I really appreciate it, but I don't belive this part to be true.

My joke failed.

I meant youngish as in babies, cause they can't read yet....

Can't all be winners...Chrisisall

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, July 5, 2007 5:16 PM

Before the toadies' reframing of the argument takes complete hold of this thread...

Here's the deal, these people defending the current government are Royalists. These people would never have faught a revolution against King George back in the day. These people think that as long as a person can rant on the internet and not be beheaded then they are free. Nevermind Frem's point that we faught a revolution against PRECISELY THE POLICIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED TODAY--times change, they'll say, and we obviously don't need as much freedom now as the founders did. Obviously, wealth trumps freedom in this country--or in the mind of the toadies, wealth IS freedom.

Again, the point of Frem's post is that we faught a war for independance, not against the Mulahs and Sharia, but against PRECISELY THE POLICIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED TODAY (income tax, standing army, being held indefinitely without trial, etc.--hello?). Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 5:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?

How come I can't make it that simple?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What HK said.

Chrisisall

SERGEANTX

Thursday, July 5, 2007 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?

Not hard to understand. Hard to admit. Especially for those who were fooled twice.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Not hard to understand. Hard to admit. Especially for those who were fooled twice.

Not hard to understand or admit. The difficulty comes in when you can see nothing but bad and you seek to paint the whole as such. The good is real too and it vastly outweighs the bad, so any real political view must take that into account or an intelligent person could assume people supporting that political view have not really thought things threw or they are pushing a bigoted, one-side or self-serving view. You can’t expect intelligent people to support you, if you’re vision is so clouded by extremism. It’s not really that hard to understand. If you can't celebrate or appreciate how lucky the vast majority of Americans are in living in this country, then I can’t see how you can expect anyone to take your complaints seriously or view them as anything other then extremism.

This is absolute nonsense:

“Ergo, in the end, we have accomplished NOTHING, save to replace one King George with another, and celebrating a lie of this magnitude disgusts me utterly, with rabid patriotism and ignorant self-imposed deliberate and malicious blindness ruling the day as they cheer on the death of liberty.”

It is either the ramblings of a lunatic, an attention-seeker or it is a lie. To say that we have accomplished nothing in our +200 years as a nation and that we are dictatorship run by a king is absolutely bullshit. It can’t possibly be true and no intelligent person would honestly make this claim and expect others to believe it. It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America. I’m okay with talking about America’s faults. I’m not okay with lies and extremist one-sided views that attempt to paint American as evil. And such views do not help the cause of fixing America's problems; all they do is hide those problems behind layers of extremism that no one can take seriously.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The good is real too and it vastly outweighs the bad, so any real political view must take that into account or an intelligent person could assume people supporting that political view have not really thought things threw or they are pushing a bigoted, one-side or self-serving view.

You know, Finn, every time I show up at my doctor's office, he asks me what my problem is. I say to him, why do you always assume I have a problem, can't I just stop by to hang?
Seriously, when one is discussing problems, it CAN come off like that's all there is. Frem comes off severe, but I love his devotion to his points. He's pissed because he cares. Of course "Nothing has been acomplished.." is wrong, literally. But I take phrases like that to be similar to me saying I "love" Serenity. Do I? Would I marry it?

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It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America.

Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*

I feel like I'm redundantly repeating myself Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, when one is discussing problems, it CAN come off like that's all there is. Frem comes off severe, but I love his devotion to his points. He's pissed because he cares. Of course "Nothing has been acomplished.." is wrong, literally. But I take phrases like that to be similar to me saying I "love" Serenity. Do I? Would I marry it?

So you can’t view the issues in anything other then colors of black and white? Well for me extremist positions have never really proven themselves to be the right positions. In fact, more often then not they tend to be those that society later comes to regret.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*

There is nothing cheap about it. It is anti-Americanism. The belief that America has done nothing in 200 years but promote its own dictatorship and that there is nothing about America that is worth appreciating or celebrating is anti-Americanism. How is that not anti-Americanism? Don’t accuse me of being cheap and then defend extremist one-sided positions for Frem’s sake.

In any event, I don’t agree with Frem. He’s welcome to hold his extremist views, but I’m not going to apologize for them. America has plenty of problems, but there is enough good in American to spend at least one day appreciating how lucky we are to live in America. You’re welcome to disagree, and you can.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So you can’t view the issues in anything other then colors of black and white? Well for me extremist positions have never really proven themselves to be the right positions.

Whoh, pardner, I'm in agreement with this right here, but that ain't the point. To hyper-focus on an issue doesn't make it a black and white view. Bush's crew hasn't done ALL bad, but enough that it overshadows the good- for many. You're reacting to Frem's post as if it's ALL bad (It would seem). We need to dial down the emotion to see the real points here.
One of the wheels are busted, and we need to fix it before the damage gets worse. That's all.

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*
There is nothing cheap about it. It is anti-Americanism. The belief that America has done nothing in 200 years but promote its own dictatorship and that there is nothing about America that is worth appreciating or celebrating is anti-Americanism. How is that not anti-Americanism? Don’t accuse me of being cheap and then defend extremist one-sided positions for Frem’s sake.

"Once again, for the cheap seats" is a line from the Last Boyscout, basically it means I'm sayin' it again louder. I don't know how much you spend on dates...

An example of Anti-Americanism is: not just seeing the cyber-porn, but judging that ALL Americans are responsible for it, they widely promote kiddie-porn, enjoy it, and ultimately will be destroyed by it!
See, I just think there are some problems w/it.

Savy? Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 7:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Whoh, pardner, I'm in agreement with this right here, but that ain't the point. To hyper-focus on an issue doesn't make it a black and white view. Bush's crew hasn't done ALL bad, but enough that it overshadows the good- for many. You're reacting to Frem's post as if it's ALL bad (It would seem). We need to dial down the emotion to see the real points here.
One of the wheels are busted, and we need to fix it before the damage gets worse. That's all.

But that’s not what Frem is saying. He’s not saying there is a problem that we need to fix; he’s saying the whole thing is bad. I don’t know why you can’t see that or won’t see that or why you attempt to attribute some sort of moderate position to Frem, because it is not what he said. Either way, you don’t seem to disagree that his words at least are extremist; you just refuse to admit it is what he meant. Maybe you're right. Only Frem knows for sure what he meant, but I can’t read is mind, all I know is what he said, and I don't agree with it or feel it is a helpful dialogue.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Once again, for the cheap seats" is a line from the Last Boyscout, basically it means I'm sayin' it again louder. I don't know how much you spend on dates...

Most people have told me I’m a big spender, perhaps because I dated poor women?

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
An example of Anti-Americanism is: not just seeing the cyber-porn, but judging that ALL Americans are responsible for it, they widely promote kiddie-porn, enjoy it, and ultimately will be destroyed by it!

Yeah, could be. Another example is saying we are a dictatorship, have been for 200 years and that there is nothing worth appreciating in or of America.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Thursday, July 5, 2007 7:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
But that’s not what Frem is saying. He’s not saying there is a problem that we need to fix; he’s saying the whole thing is bad.

If that's his TRUE point, then I wouldn't agree with it...If America truly sucked, we couldn't be talking like this right now.

Quote:
Another example is saying we are a dictatorship, have been for 200 years and that there is nothing worth appreciating in or of America.

I just take that as zeal. Now if you want to make a case for economic dictatorship...hmmm, well, not so far...

Still and all, it's a might rocky time, at the moment...(IMHO)

Chrisisall

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