Religion...Bitch slapped...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2026 18:57
VIEWED: 9073
PAGE 2 of 10
Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
people are so hostile towards religion...
I don't think this is true. Kaneman is just naturally hostile (among other things).
Anyway, none of the atheists I know have any axe to grind. But, if you think about it, you can kinda see why we might be a little put off. How would you feel if someone told you that'd you'd suffer eternal torture if you don't buy what they were selling?
I don't have the slightest ill will for religious folks in general. Most of my best friends are religious. I respect their beliefs and they respect mine.
The negative responses you've witnessed are usually, although not always I realize, prompted by proselytizing. Like most people, atheists don't want to be preached at. And they don't want their kids learning mythology in place of science to satisfy the fundamentalists. It's pushing for these kinds of things that prompts ill will toward religion.
I'm not really in favor of the 'preaching' that Dawkins is pushing lately. But it's certainly no more offensive than the message the Christians put out there every Sunday.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
sargeantx- Anyway, none of the atheists I know have any axe to grind. But, if you think about it, you can kinda see why we might be a little put off.
thats fair, no one wants to be converted... so how it is that atheists cant see when their beliefs are forced upon us is beyond me
Quote:
How would you feel if someone told you that'd you'd suffer eternal torture if you don't buy what they were selling?
oh come on... if its all make believe, then what do you really care? people have tried so hard over the last 100 years to remove God from public discussion or view, that in fact we've been marginalized to the point of irrelevance
regardless though, cant you see the message.. that our actions have eternal consequences? personally, i never threaten damnation to people, because only God is qualified to make that judgement. but i think its interesting that you perceive us as 'selling' something to you; it never occurred you were being sold on atheism? some people will always see God as some repressive overlord who wants nothing more then to deny any pleasure or original thought from man. well, if we're just animals, then morality is just relative, and maybe what we believe to be 'sins' are in actuality benign actions. in that case, the belief in God might be oppressive(if you want ultimate freedom to do whatever you want). however if their is a Creator, then our decisions do have consequences, and we will be held accountable; in that case, this 'belief' is a guideline to do what pleases God and is mutually beneficial to others.
whats ironic is that its the absence of God that is oppressive, and youve been conditioned to believe otherwise. do you know what the obstacle to (successful)anarchy is? morality. if each individual understood his rights, and subsequent responsibilities, held accountable to him by his Creator, then self governance would be possible. but without God, consider that human beings are imperfect, and having removed these moral absolutes, an exterior body is then required to enforce some kind of 'rule of law' necessary to maintain a civilization. what happens when you remove this influence of God given rights(and responsibilities)? laws become arbitrary and relative, and people do what they want regardless- and in turn government responds with equal coercion and force, as a means to oppress. i mean.. is this news to any of you? the founding of our country was ideologically based on these principles.. that their is no 'king', but 'king Jesus'(actually one of the revolutionary wars early slogans), implying ones individual sovereignty
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You're assuming that many means pretty much all. Are you sure you want to do that?
no im not, but if this website is any kind of consensus, id say im more correct then you are
Quote:
A summery of what AntiMason is saying is, "Sure I know that historical fact contradicts what I believe, but I don't care. I'm just going to put blinders on and completely ignore it."
and youre omniscient.. i got it
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Pardon me while I don't believe someone who can't capitalize properly can understand such works properly.
thats kind of like when people resort to name-calling as they run out of good arguments. but thats fine... when you finally do get around to it, you can very modestly eat your own words. you think im making this up? find out the hard way
Quote:
I was taking your logic to it's logical end to show how you contradict yourself. If that wasn't obvious to you...
you were trying to take my logic.. but no, again you have it backwards, and apparently you didnt even read my last comment. i believe we were created. you believe we are ascendants of animals. so why were the russians treated like animals? because thats what the beliefs of communism lead to. what was communism? athiest. pretty simple.. but maybe even you dont understand the implications of your own beliefs sometimes
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This example is completely contradicted by the fact that there has been herbal ways to perform abortions for millennia.
and its probably always been a sin too. but again.. if you dont believe in Divine rights, i dont expect you to honor the sactity of life either
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"how it is that atheists cant see when their beliefs are forced upon us"
You mean science ? It's not a belief. It's a tool to study the world. I think the problem comes when religious people try to foist their religion on science.
"people have tried so hard over the last 100 years to remove God from public discussion or view ..."
By "public" I take it you mean "governmental". Blame that on the founders, who tried to prevent a theocracy.
"... that in fact we've been marginalized to the point of irrelevance."
Hardly. This is just so much victimhood, not born out by a simple reality check.
"our actions have eternal consequences"
That's true in a literal physical sense. In so far as time will probably not reverse itself, everything will be unique till the end of time. But you don't need a god for that to be true.
"it never occurred you were being sold on atheism"
I'm guessing everyone on the board was brought up with some form of religion, and those who are now atheists came to aetheism on their own.
"maybe what we believe to be 'sins' are in actuality benign actions"
That's probably true in the broad scope of human history - AFAIK there is no one stricture that is held across all humanity. But ...
"if you want ultimate freedom to do whatever you want"
There are brain structures in most people that foster cooperation, trust, empathy.
"however if their is a Creator, then our decisions do have consequences"
If there is NO creator our decisions have consequences as well.
"and we will be held accountable"
We will always feel the consequences of our actions in this world.
"do you know what the obstacle to anarchy is? morality"
You seem to believe people are evil and need a big daddy in the sky - wait till your father comes home !
"what happens when you remove this influence of God given rights(and responsibilities)? laws become arbitrary and relative, and people do what they want regardless- and in turn government responds with equal coercion and force, as a means to oppress."
People tend to believe what the hierarchy tells them to believe, to keep that hierarchy going. At the moment the hierarchy is pushing capitalism - greed is the ultimate good. And people can be propagandized into ignoring their basic impulses and needs. But neurology shows us that humans are in fact internally rewarded by peace, cooperation, trust and love. If laws and systems were built to foster those values rather than punish and deny them, then you'd see a self-regulating society.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:your understanding of what communism "says" is as fractured as your understanding of what science "says". Have you actually read Marx or Lenin? Pardon me while I laugh my *ss off.
well no, the communist belief is that 'individual' power corrupts, so the state is given authority to micromanage the populaces lives, to tell people what to do and how to think. they deny personal rights because they do not believe you have any, plain and simple; you exist for the collective, the 'species'
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I hate to burst your bubble Anti, but I'm not hostile towards religion I'm hostile to you. And that's because you have some serious fractures in your mentation that you try to impose on others. For example, in the other thread you said "I'm not ignoring reality" almost immediately followed by "That's your reality" Do you even understand what the word reality means? It means that which remains constant no matter what we think about it. There is no such thing as "your reality" and "my reality" except to people who want to ignore reality and still claim they have one oar in the water.
people are so hostile towards religion
Quote:
so how it is that atheists cant see when their beliefs are forced upon us is beyond me
Anti- As I said in the other thread, there are three assumptions (call them "beliefs" if you will) about what is "real" that underlies science:
1) There is an objective universe that exists outside of ourselves
2) We are part of it
3) Our senses tell us something meaningful about it
And one other about cause and effect:
4) It exists.
Those are the assumptions (beliefs) that underlie science. Which one of those "beliefs" do you care to dispute? Which one(s) am I "forcing" on you? Hey, feel free to reject one, some, or all of the above.
Quote:You just did. God will punish you - not only for taking away his perogatives but also for being dishonest about it!
regardless though, cant you see the message.. that our actions have eternal consequences? personally, i never threaten damnation to people
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
thats fair, no one wants to be converted... so how it is that atheists cant see when their beliefs are forced upon us is beyond me
That makes sense if you are pretending that atheism is a religious belief. That's why religious evangelists pursue this fallacy. If a belief about religion is a "religious" belief, then is a belief about evil an evil belief? Atheism is a lack of religious belief, regardless of the word games you choose to play.
Quote:
but i think its interesting that you perceive us as 'selling' something to you; it never occurred you were being sold on atheism?
No, but the opposite has. I was taught Christianity growing up. But I was also taught how to think. I came to my own conclusions on the nature of gods, in the face of a persistent pressure from believers to do otherwise. Atheists (outside of Dawkins and his ilk) aren't evangelists. We don't care what you believe and we have no interest in 'converting' people. That's the point I was trying to make - you only get our ire up when you try pushing your religion on us publicly. The fact that it's 'promoted' through fear and intimidation only makes it more objectionable.
Quote:
well, if we're just animals, then morality is just relative ...
Right, the old refrain that religion is the source of morality. If you're worried about moral relativism, basing morality on religion is pretty shaky ground. You may have noticed that there's more than one religion. You of course want your religion to rule, but surely you can understand why those of other faiths would have a problem with that. In a pluralistic society we have to rely on something more universal than the idiosyncrasies of a specific religion.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"our actions have eternal consequences"
That's true in a literal physical sense. In so far as time will probably not reverse itself, everything will be unique till the end of time. But you don't need a god for that to be true.
"however if their is a Creator, then our decisions do have consequences"
If there is NO creator our decisions have consequences as well.
"and we will be held accountable"
We will always feel the consequences of our actions in this world.
Come on now Rue, Anti is having a hard enough time in this thread as it is without you misrepresenting his/her argument. I believe Anti was refering to after death, don't you think?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
your understanding of what communism "says" is as fractured as your understanding of what science "says". Have you actually read Marx or Lenin? Pardon me while I laugh my *ss off.
Do tell us about property rights and individual freedoms under a communist system Signy. I'm a sponge waiting to soak it all in.
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Quote:You’re hostile towards anti because of his religious opinions.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:I hate to burst your bubble Anti, but I'm not hostile towards religion I'm hostile to you.
people are so hostile towards religion
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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