Immigration nation
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 12, 2026 04:42
VIEWED: 9962
PAGE 4 of 11
Well, yes, living near LA as I do, I've driven thru Pico-Union and seen the ladies pushing a stroller, with three other kids and three bags of groceries taking the bus. I'm sure it's just a matter of choice.
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Always look upstream.
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I don't want to interfere with SignyM's conversation here, but do the women who make Adidas sneakers for $5 each actually go the store and buy them at $120 a pop?
That IS what profit is about - the people who make the stuff not actually getting enough money to buy it. And of course, the higher the profit, the bigger the gap.
But that's not the only issue with capitalism, either economic or social.
It seeks to maximize profit. So if you can sell something for $10 that only cost $0.01 to make you will likely be doing that rather than selling some other product. Manufacturing lipstick becomes more attractive than manufacturing steel, or autos, or chips. Selling premium goods to a few people like luxury automobiles becomes more attractive than selling staples to many like food. Selling Viagra and Lipitor to first-world people is more attractive than selling anti-malarials to third-world people. In short, capitalism doesn't market to fill a need, it markets to maximize profit.
Another economic issue with it is the problem of 'the commons'. If something can't be isolated and individually owned capitalism doesn't account for it. So, potentially beneficial things (public health) are left undone, while detrimental things (air pollution) go unchecked in a capitalist model.
As SignyM also mentioned, for the system to be freely competative the workers must have the same power as the owners of the means of production - the capitalists. But since we see that robust mutinationals exist but not robust international unions there is no freely functioning market.
Short on time so leaving some economic issues and moving onto social ones ...
Capitalism structures the entire society in a zero-sum competitive model. Neurologically that's a highly abnormal human state. MOST people are biologically geared to cooperate, and they find peaceful, friendly social interactions preferable.
Anyway, I have to go. Perhaps I'll get back here later.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Illegal aliens murder dozens of US citizens every day in USA. I agree 100% with Alex Jones today. Send all soldiers to the borders and massacre all illegal aliens with helicopter gunships. THAT'S what the military is for, not slaughtering 2.5-million innocent folks in Iraq who never invaded USA. Then arrest all employers, landlords and banksters of illegal aliens, and seize their assets.
Mexico invaded USA in both World War 1 and World War 2 to support the Germans, in the Plan of San Diego. THIS IS WAR!!!
www.vdare.com/Sailer/060129_sandiego.htm
www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/deisyseis_partone.htm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, yes, living near LA as I do, I've driven thru Pico-Union and seen the ladies pushing a stroller, with three other kids and three bags of groceries taking the bus. I'm sure it's just a matter of choice.
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Always look upstream.
You just described my mother back in the 70's and guess what? we had a car and my dad drove it to work every day. Just because modern suburban soccer moms have a minivan or a truck to run the kids around doesnt mean that everyone can afford 2 vehicles. So your "observation" proves nothing, unless you stopped and asked her which of course you didn't because that would mean you'd have to treat her as a person and not a political footbal.
Here in Texas, where public transport is pitifull yes, even the immigrants have cars. I know this because a coworker was involved in a fender bender with one and the driver had no licence or insurance so my friend had to pay for his own repairs.
The problem both you and Rue have is that you never let reality get in the way of your preconceptions.
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"The biggest obstical to illegals getting cars is... wait for it... they are illegal and as such have problems getting things like licences and insurance."
That must be why they live 15 to an apartment and shop yard sales for clothes. They COULD live better on those wages, they just have a hard time legally spending legal tender.
Oh, and was that snark really necessary ? Or are you having a hard time addressing the topic.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I don't want to interfere with SignyM's conversation here, but do the women who make Adidas sneakers for $5 each actually go the store and buy them at $120 a pop?
You ask the wrong question. What makes an Adidas sneaker worth $120? I wouldn't pay that for a shoe. Is there something about it that makes it 12 times better than a $10 shoe? Really? I'm curious to know.
In reality the shoe is worth $120 not because that's it's intrinsic value but because that's what someone in the West is willing to pay for it. It's supply and demand, if people didnt have the money to pay $120 for sneakers then they would not cost $120. They sell them for what the market can bear not for the actual value of the item which probably cost less than $20 to make.
Chances are the women in those factories wear shoes of similar quality to the ones they make but buy them at a far lower price. In the US you can go to a Fillines basement or Ross and buy a $60 designer second or department store overstock at half price. In a similar store in Hong Kong you can get that same item for $1 because nobody there would pay even $30 for it.
Quote:
That IS what profit is about - the people who make the stuff not actually getting enough money to buy it. And of course, the higher the profit, the bigger the gap.
No that's not what profit is about. Profit is only that amount extra that you make on the sale of an item over and above it's design, manufacture, distribution and retail costs. How big that profit is is determined by those costs and by the amount the customer is willing to pay to acquire it.
Let's stick with your shoe example.
You live in a wealthy country one where there are enough people willing to pay $120 for sneakers to keep the value of those sneakers at $120. If nobody bought the sneakers at that price I'm sure they would be cheaper because that's the nature of the market. There may even be times when for a brief period items are sold for less than they cost to make. That's a market decision too.
There is no conspiracy. Guys puffing cigars do not meet in boardrooms and deliberately plan how to deprive their workers of the privilage of spending $120 on a $20 product. Instead men in marketing department sit around and try to work out how to convince other people with $120 to part with it for a pair of $20 running shoes.
Quote:
It seeks to maximize profit. So if you can sell something for $10 that only cost $0.01 to make you will likely be doing that rather than selling some other product. Manufacturing lipstick becomes more attractive than manufacturing steel, or autos, or chips. Selling premium goods to a few people like luxury automobiles becomes more attractive than selling staples to many like food.
No that's obviously wrong. If what you say is true then you would only be able to buy lipstick and not steel, there would be more Herme's stores than Walgreens and that isn't true. You are right people do try to maximise profit especially if you're investing capital BUT If everyone made and sold the same thing then there would be a glut of it and prices would fall. As prices and profits fell people would move their money out of that segment of the economy into one that promised higher returns and thus you would see diversification.
Companies like Walgeens and Kroger do not exist to sell you deoderant and food. They exist to make a profit, they just chose to do it by selling deoderant and food. If they could not make a profit at what they do they would not be doing it, they are a business not a public service.
And yes if there is a better profit elsewhere in the economy liquid capital will try and chase it. The problem is that moving money around is not a lossless process. There are costs involved both real (like brokerage costs) and theoretical (like opertunity costs.) That means that in most instances the amount of extra profit you could make by taking your money out of Walgreens stock and using it to open a Hermes boutique
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"The biggest obstical to illegals getting cars is... wait for it... they are illegal and as such have problems getting things like licences and insurance."
That must be why they live 15 to an apartment and shop yard sales for clothes. They COULD live better on those wages, they just have a hard time legally spending legal tender.
Oh, and was that snark really necessary ? Or are you having a hard time addressing the topic.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
Did you just quote your own post and complain that it's snarky?
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I quoted my post b/c you failed to address it. You'd rather pretend that since you have one friend who got into a car accident once in the past with someone who may or may not have been illegal you've answered the entire question of wages and illegal immigrants. And I'm curious if you have anything of interest to add to the discussion, or if you intend to rest on your little a ---necdote.
The snark comment was about YOUR post, which was, as you know, snarky.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I quoted my post b/c you failed to address it. You'd rather pretend that since you have one friend who got into a car accident once in the past with someone who may or may not have been illegal you've answered the entire question of wages and illegal immigrants.
The snark comment was about YOUR post, which was, as you know, snarky.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
Then I beg your forgiveness oh knowing one for I being just a poor mortal did not intend for said post to be snarky. Lowe I will whip myself with birches for having angered you so....
--- Now that was snarky.
I believe I have answered the question well enough. Both my friend and the Dallas police --- know nothings that they are --- know that the guy involved in the accident was an illegal because well he was, they caught him at the scene. I know that causes a problem with your theory but hey.
http://cgi.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/03/29/news/doc460b34108ea1f059
906919.txt
"Supporters estimate some 250,000 immigrants, illegal or not, already are driving in Illinois without proper training and insurance. If they get into traffic accidents, many of those people will flee and leave the other driver stuck with any repair costs or hospital bills."
As to your 15 families to a room or whatever. I have no doubt that somewhere there probably are people that do that. There are people somewhere that abuse their children, did you abuse your child this morning? There are people somewhere that torture animals, do you like it when fluffy squeels like that?
Just because some people do things does not mean that everyone does. I know it suits your political viewpoint to imagine all illegals living in quaint Dickensian squalar and no doubt some do. Not all of them do though, perhaps not even the majority, and yes that means some of them have cars -- how cheeky of them to be so extravagant, they should be huddling around a candle as their only source of warmth until their employer sacks them on Christmas Eve......
He's the thing. We live in a world where there is real slavery. Where a girl can be snatched off a farm in Romania and end up in a brothel in Nice. Someone who didn't decide to leave her home did not chose the work she does, gains nothing from it and will be killed or injured if she refuses. By contrast most US illegals came here of their own free will, made the journey under their own power, found their own employment and can leave it at any time. And we find that SigNY resents them for taking American jobs and you do it because they are being used by the man. Unless you are 100% native American your ancestors made the same choices these guys did. They probably had the same hardship getting here and may even have lived 15 to a room while they got a start. And yes that means they were probably exploited by those capitalists along the way. You know what? The illegals today and your ancestors back then shared one thing, they both thought themselves better off in America doing shitty jobs than being back where they came from.
And I've just wasted an hour of my time for nothing because you are too stupid and too stuborn to ever conceed that you may ever be even slightly wrong about anything.
So guess what, you won, I'll conceed the sky is bright diamond pink if you say it is because you will just argue it to death if anyone says otherwise.
Good night.
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I'm sorry about the snark comment. When I came on for some reason your longer post didn't come up but your shorter one did. Perhaps we were cross-posting? Anyway, I was referring to this "The problem both you and Rue have is that you never let reality get in the way of your preconceptions."
"It's supply and demand" Supply and demand has little to do with it. And in fact your own argument doesn't follow thorugh on that idea and runs off to this - "Chances are the women in those factories wear shoes of similar quality (interesting elide) to the ones they make". Taking the shoe example, an unspecified leather Adidas sneaker costs about $72.00 in the Philippines (USED. non marking sole. Made in China. Leather sneakers. there's a very litle tear at the back (ankle area). very very little. bought this for P3,800.00 size) At Amazon mens' Adidas leather sneakers cost 69.90 - 84.95. http://www.amazon.com/adidas-Mens-Mali-Leather- Sneaker/dp/B000CFGZSE I'd say that's not much of a price break off-shore. And this REAL example proves my point, as do you oddly enough. There is no price break for the sneakers those women assemble. They can't afford the thing they make. So, the person who makes the luxury sneaker buys the cheap brand. The person who makes the cheap brand ...
"If nobody bought the sneakers at that price" is a complete mis-statement of the calculus involved. If you can make as much a profit selling 10@ $120 sneakers as 100@ $12 sneakers you will market the $120 sneakers. And why is that? B/c the people buying the $120 sneakers have more money and are steadier customers.
"If what you say is true then you would only be able to buy lipstick and not steel"
Yes, and look at the state of steel, car and chip making in the US v lipstick. I rest my case.
"If you can make 20c profit on an antimalerial drug that 20 million people will need to take daily, that's far more money than selling 100,000 doses a month of a $40 impotence pill" In that cast then there WOULD be active research in making better anti-malarials, anti-trypansomites, and so on. Yet drug-makers are constantly looking for the next 'lifestyle' blockbuster drug - ie a lifetime treatment for first-world discomforts. Since that is an indisputable fact you have yet to explain how that happens under your theories.
"if you step back from the insurance/MHO setup you have here and squint at it, and take into account that its something most people need" Any more caveats? In fact, the medical example really shows the consumer-cost of profit as well as marketing and pricing. Socialized medicine costs 1/2 or less per capita compared to the US and covers 50% more people. Why is that? B/c the government is NOT concerned with profit and so medicine is run - at cost. In the US OTOH it is FAR more profitable to cover a select portion of the country ('cherry-picking'). So not only do people who do get insurance pay more b/c of the profit cut, the rest are excluded from getting insurance at all.
"people that run businesses happen to like having the freedom to determine what happens to their property" If you 'owned' a river do you think you should be allowed to pollute it if it's a source of drinking water?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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