Immigration nation
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 12, 2026 04:42
VIEWED: 9962
PAGE 3 of 11
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fletch- As Marx (and Keynes) have noted, concentrating capital into the hands of a few eventually stagnates the entire economy by reducing aggregate demand.
etc etc
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Always look upstream.
Would be nice if you would stay on topic. The pros/cons of wealth distribution has at best peripheral connections with the problem under discussion.
The fact remains that immigrants produce wealth through their labour, that wealth may not be fairly of evenly distributed but it does exist. In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
How much you can pay a burger flipper is limited by his productivity and the value the market places on his product. He may work hard, he may deserve to be paid more, but if the customer won't pay $5 for a burger he will ultimately be out of luck.
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Fuck it man, open the gates and let the nation crumble. I don't give a crap, the US hasn't been the US since the end of the Civil War. Personally, I know that I can survive in a third world hell hole, I've done it before, and I'd be even more adept if I didn't have Convention laws holding me back.
Bring on the Dark Paradise!
[IMG]
Ride down from Asgard to the battlefield,
Bringer of the valiant dead who died but never yielded,
Carry we who die in battle over land and sea,
Across the rainbow bridge to Valhalla,
Odin's waiting for me.
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The luxury car worker buys an economy car, the economy car worker buys a motorcycle, the motorcycle worker buys a bicycle, the bicycle worker walks in shoes, and the shoemaker goes unshod. B/c of the profit 'cut' no one gets paid the full value of what they make. It's a conundrum of capitalism. That's why US citizens can't afford US-made products. The problem with cheap labor (either illegal or through exported manufacture) is that ultimately it's a race to the bottom for all workers. Hiring illegals may be a temporary boost to buying power, but ultimately it's cutting your own throat.
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Would be nice if you would stay on topic. The pros/cons of wealth distribution has at best peripheral connections with the problem under discussion.
The fact remains that immigrants produce wealth through their labour, that wealth may not be fairly of evenly distributed but it does exist. In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
How much you can pay a burger flipper is limited by his productivity and the value the market places on his product. He may work hard, he may deserve to be paid more, but if the customer won't pay $5 for a burger he will ultimately be out of luck.
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Except the world isn't really like that. In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles --- go and look if you dont believe me.
The point is that the immigrant does bring money to the table via his labour. Yes it's an unfair distribution because neither he nor Uncle Sam get their fair share but they do contribute and that contribution is worth something.
If that contribution went away there would be economic consequences both to the national GDP and to the cost of goods.
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Quote:First of all. the distribution of wealth and the effect that illegal- and therefore cheap- -labor has on American wages is a BIG part of anti (illegal) immigrant passion. And the only reason why our current GOP administration is for illegal immigration is that their corporate buddies get the cheap labor that allows them to make a big profit. BTW-your position has a some doozy holes in it!
Would be nice if you would stay on topic. The pros/cons of wealth distribution has at best peripheral connections with the problem under discussion.
The fact remains that immigrants produce wealth through their labour, that wealth may not be fairly of evenly distributed but it does exist. In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
How much you can pay a burger flipper is limited by his productivity and the value the market places on his product. He may work hard, he may deserve to be paid more, but if the customer won't pay $5 for a burger he will ultimately be out of luck.
Quote:How about those $100 sneakers that take $5 to produce? There are so many excpetions to this statement - both specific and theoretical- that I think you should go back and REALLY study economics, and not the gobbledy-gook that someone filled your head with.
In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
Quote:Except illegal aliens, who ride the bus. You're sort of arguing out of both sides of your mouth.
In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles --- go and look if you dont believe me.
Quote:In every instance where the minimum wage has been increased- both historically and geographically- the economy has actually improved. Go figure.
If that contribution went away there would be economic consequences both to the national GDP and to the cost of goods.
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Always look upstream.
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Congress has dragged it's feet on raising the minimum wage, and no one understands why the gap between the richest and poorest is widening. Ok, some folks understand ;-)
I'm all for forcing businesses to pay/collect taxes on their 'illegals', and paying them at least minimum wage.
Catch someone not collecting/paying taxes for illegals, throw the employer in jail. Catch them paying less then minimum wage, throw the employer in jail. I think you'd see things straighten out pretty quick.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
] First of all. the distribution of wealth and the effect that illegal- and therefore cheap- -labor has on American wages is a BIG part of anti (illegal) immigrant passion. And the only reason why our current GOP administration is for illegal immigration is that their corporate buddies get the cheap labor that allows them to make a big profit. BTW-your position has a some doozy holes in it!
During the civil war the Irish in New York rioted because people convinced them that freed slaves would undercut them and cost them their jobs. Just because someone feels passionate about something doesn't mean that they are right. Show me a "doozy hole" in the basic premise that you can't pay someone more than the value of their work product, show me a "doozy hole" in the idea that an immigrant's work doesnt have some value.
Quote:How about those $100 sneakers that take $5 to produce? There are so many excpetions to this statement - both specific and theoretical- that I think you should go back and REALLY study economics, and not the gobbledy-gook that someone filled your head with.
In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
The operative word here is DOWN. Of course you can pay someone less than the value of their labour, in fact if you intend to make a profit you have to, the point I was making is that you can't afford to pay them more than that value. If adding 50c to the cost of a pound of US meat means you can't sell it because imported beef is cheaper then you can't afford to pay someone too much more to process that beef. So in some industries it isn't the case that an immigrant job at $3/hr would become a US worker's job at $8/hr if the immigrant wasn't there. That job would simply disappear.
I think my understanding of economics is actually ahead of yours at least I realise that it is possible to price yourself out of a job.
Quote:Quote:Except illegal aliens, who ride the bus. You're sort of arguing out of both sides of your mouth.
In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles --- go and look if you dont believe me.
I find openning my mouth to speak is better than mumbling through clenched teeth, which I suspect you do a lot.
The biggest obstical to illegals getting cars is... wait for it... they are illegal and as such have problems getting things like licences and insurance. If they ignore those niceties (like many here in Texas do) then they can get a car. Personally if public transport can get me where I want to go I use it. When was the last time you did?
Quote:In every instance where the minimum wage has been increased- both historically and geographically- the economy has actually improved. Go figure.
If that contribution went away there would be economic consequences both to the national GDP and to the cost of goods.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
That makes sense trickle up is always more effective than trickle down because lower income people will tend to spend any extra money they make and that in turn stimulates demand. There will also however be folks that get let go because their employer can't or won't shoulder the increase.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
] First of all. the distribution of wealth and the effect that illegal- and therefore cheap- -labor has on American wages is a BIG part of anti (illegal) immigrant passion. And the only reason why our current GOP administration is for illegal immigration is that their corporate buddies get the cheap labor that allows them to make a big profit. BTW-your position has a some doozy holes in it!
During the civil war the Irish in New York rioted because people convinced them that freed slaves would undercut them and cost them their jobs. Just because someone feels passionate about something doesn't mean that they are right. Show me a "doozy hole" in the basic premise that you can't pay someone more than the value of their work product, show me a "doozy hole" in the idea that an immigrant's work doesnt have some value.Quote:How about those $100 sneakers that take $5 to produce? There are so many excpetions to this statement - both specific and theoretical- that I think you should go back and REALLY study economics, and not the gobbledy-gook that someone filled your head with.
In addition the value of all jobs default down to the value of the product they make.
The operative word here is DOWN. Of course you can pay someone less than the value of their labour, in fact if you intend to make a profit you have to, the point I was making is that you can't afford to pay them more than that value. If adding 50c to the cost of a pound of US meat means you can't sell it because imported beef is cheaper then you can't afford to pay someone too much more to process that beef. So in some industries it isn't the case that an immigrant job at $3/hr would become a US worker's job at $8/hr if the immigrant wasn't there. That job would simply disappear.
I think my understanding of economics is actually ahead of yours at least I realise that it is possible to price yourself out of a job.
Quote:Quote:Except illegal aliens, who ride the bus. You're sort of arguing out of both sides of your mouth.
In truth the guy that makes the economy car drives an economy car as does the guy that makes bicycles and just about everyone else does ride bicycles --- go and look if you dont believe me.
I find openning my mouth to speak is better than mumbling through clenched teeth, which I suspect you do a lot.
The biggest obstical to illegals getting cars is... wait for it... they are illegal and as such have problems getting things like licences and insurance. If they ignore those niceties (like many here in Texas do) then they can get a car. Personally if public transport can get me where I want to go I use it. When was the last time you did?
Quote:In every instance where the minimum wage has been increased- both historically and geographically- the economy has actually improved. Go figure.
If that contribution went away there would be economic consequences both to the national GDP and to the cost of goods.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
That makes sense trickle up is always more effective than trickle down because lower income people will tend to spend any extra money they make and that in turn stimulates demand. There will also however be folks that get let go because their employer can't or won't shoulder the increase.
Bravo fletch2. I doubt you'll get any responses. Case closed. I loved the slap backs.......Well, he did win this argument....and managed to be snarky tooooooooo.........
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Poor Fletch, you have Kaneman on your side. HAHAHAHA! Well, I won't count it against you!
Fletch, I'm not going to do a point-by-point bc I want to address your post more holistically. You have a very basic contradiction within your own reasoning. On the one hand, you say that we need immigrant labor because otherwise cheap foreign labor will out-compete us. On the other hand, you say that no Americans will lose any jobs because of cheap immigrant labor. You can't have it both ways. Either cheap labor is a threat or it is not.
In addition, the point about "pricing yourself out of a job" assumes that "the market" is functioning. However, "the market" does not function when one side (in this case corporations) have inordinately more power than the other side (workers). A truly functioning labor market would require a force equal in scope and power to the multinationals, which doesn't exist. That would allow the price of labor to go UP as well as DOWN, whereas you posit a one-way street.
Also, I think we have a fundamental difference in how we define "value", and how much "value" an item acquires in the marketplace. You're prolly thinking of a price/demand curve.
So just out of curiosity, how much economics did you study?
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Always look upstream.
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"The biggest obstical to illegals getting cars is... wait for it... they are illegal and as such have problems getting things like licences and insurance."
That must be why they live 15 to an apartment and shop yard sales for clothes. They COULD live better on those wages, they just have a hard time legally spending legal tender.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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