Immigration nation

POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 12, 2026 04:42
VIEWED: 9962
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RUE

Friday, June 15, 2007 7:42 PM

I agree with the sentiment. Just noting that NAFTA, CAFTA SHAFTA is a PN (TM) original.

SIGNYM

Friday, June 15, 2007 7:52 PM

Aw shucks! And I thought it sprang from my brain! Just goes to prove, what PN writes sometimes sticks. 'Specially that image of Fred Thompson running around nekkid in the Bohemian Grove. (shudder) Thanks for the visual.... NOT.

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Always look upstream.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Didn't millions of Americans call their senators and say they were against this bill or any bill that would give amnesty? How come the will of the people can blatantly be ignored?

Probably has something to do with the government being a representative democracy vs. a direct democracy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 16, 2007 2:38 PM

So, I know that this subject has been beat to death many times, but I'm still willing to hear why I am wrong about wanting to control our borders and make life uncomfortable for the millions of illegals here in the USA.

The biggest problem that I see is that "illegals" work for less, often unreported, and screw the average American working stiff in the process. Even people who are here legally get screwed while their green card is held out of reach (this include programmers, engineesr, physicists etc. Its' not just manual laborers.) and in the meantime screw everyone else.

What is the solution?

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Always look upstream.

RAZZA

Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, I know that this subject has been beat to death many times, but I'm still willing to hear why I am wrong about wanting to control our borders and make life uncomfortable for the millions of illegals here in the USA.

The biggest problem that I see is that "illegals" work for less, often unreported, and screw the average American working stiff in the process. Even people who are here legally get screwed while their green card is held out of reach (this include programmers, engineesr, physicists etc. Its' not just manual laborers.) and in the meantime screw everyone else.

What is the solution?

Signym:

I think we agree for the most part on this issue. The problem is that both political parties have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and let's face it, the current bill would change nothing. Republicans will not betray their business interest supporters who need the cheap labor that illegals bring to the table. Democrats believe that most of these illegals will eventually vote democratic, so they want to bring in as many as possible as a result. Both
parties are hypocritical as hell on this issue, and it pisses me off. Republican politician are cowtowing to business special interest despite that fact that the majority of their constituency wants a crackdown on the use of illegal workers and thinks the only way to do that is to crackdown on the exploitive business owners who use them. Democrats who are supposed to be the party of labor, are fine with exploited labor as long as they are illegal and will eventually be democratic voters.

This is a complex issue obviously, but there are so many red herrings being thrown around by both sides that it just muddies the waters and makes it difficult to find a solution.

Big Red Herrings IMHO:
1) Anti-illegal immigration proponenets are racists
2) It's impossible to throw 12 million people in jail.
3) Everything is going to be more expensive
4} They are doing jobs americans won't do

It is not racist to espouse a policy which limits the ability of people to cross our borders illegally, how is that racist in any way?

No one is suggesting that we throw 12 million people in jail, it is a ridiculous plan that no one thinks is workable. Eliminate the employment opportunities for illegal immigrants by enforcing laws against businesses which use them and those immigrants will have no choice but to return home. They will leave of their own free will, and no one has to go to jail, except business owners who exploit people who otherwise have no other options.

So what if some goods and services are more expensive? So for the sake of cheap lettuce it's okay to exploit people with few opportunities? And let's face it, our comforts and cheap goods and services are being gained on the backs of good decent people who are simply being exploited! No way around that!

It is not a question of americans being unwilling to do the work, it is a question of americans being unwilling to the work at the cheap wages illegals are. If businesses cannot compete on a level playing field with other businesses without using cheap illegal labor, they shouldn't be in business!!

Sorry for ranting, and not sure I can offer real solutions, but we have to start with securing the border. Walls aren't going to do it either, so we shouldn't be wasting our time and resources on them. Anyone who ventures to cross the dangers of the mexican dessert is not going to be stopped by a wall. There are better methods for stopping the flow than physical barriers. Fortress America sends the wrong message about our country to the world if you ask me. We have to crack down on employers who are knowingly using illegal labor, and at the very least make it easier for legitimate business owners to verify worker status. We need to create more programs that marry business owners with the labor they seek, and do it above board so those workers can get the protections and wages they deserve. We need to work on pressuring the governments to

FLETCH2

Saturday, June 16, 2007 7:44 PM

Unfortunately Marx was right, it is labour that creates wealth. Even today there are whole industries in America -- food processing and agriculture being the two biggest examples that I doubt would exist without migrant low cost labour.

That's why you get the odd sight of Republicans in Southern agricultural states pitching improved border security against terrorists and drug dealers and guest worker programs for agricultural workers.

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 16, 2007 8:00 PM

My impression is that you've got Marx half-right. Workers create wealth. Cheap workers create profit. Not the same thing, I think.

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Always look upstream.

FLETCH2

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
My impression is that you've got Marx half-right. Workers create wealth. Cheap workers create profit. Not the same thing, I think.

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Always look upstream.

No I think you'll find they are the same thing. If you run a business without an interest in making a profit then it isnt a business --- it's a hobby or a charity.

In part what people get paid is determined by the value of the objects they produce. For example, you could pay lawyer's $200/hr to flip burgers at McDonalds but nobody would buy the $20 big Mac's they'd make.

In some industries you are right, removing illegals from the equation would just mean that prices and pay would rise to a point where Americans would do the work. In construction you might add 20% to the cost of building a new house and people would pay that because they have no choice -- well, other than give up on ever owning their own home.

In other industries like agriculture or meat packing the same may not be true. If US beef sells for $3/lb and imported Argentine beef sells for $3.20, then adding an extra 50c to the cost of US beef could mean that there simply isn't a market for that product any more. Back in the day that wouldnt have mattered because the US could put a tariff on imported beef to keep the US producers competative, these days with NAFTA/WTO that is no longer true. If you want to compete globally for commodity goods you have to do it at the lowest possible price.

CANTTAKESKY

Monday, June 18, 2007 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The only "reform" that our immigration laws need is to drop the allowance that children born in the USA are automatically citizens....

This is not an "immigration law." It is a Constitutional right, under the 14th Amendment.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States
_Constitution

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

We are a nation of immigrants, made great in large part by immigrants. It was a country of hardship and opportunity for those who were willing to tough it out and fend for themselves. The new blood of the best and toughest from all over the world is what brought infusions of creativity to our country.

Of course, our country isn't so tough anymore, and people don't have to fend for themselves like they used to. So the country doesn't attract the die-hard self-reliant doers that it used to. But still, for the most part, people who come here are willing to work very hard for the American dream. As an immigrant who knows many other immigrants, I understand, but disagree with, the widespread hostility that is growing in this country towards the immigrant population, both legal and illegal.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

SIGNYM

Monday, June 18, 2007 5:06 PM

Fletch- As Marx (and Keynes) have noted, concentrating capital into the hands of a few eventually stagnates the entire economy by reducing aggregate demand. Keynes' whole notion of introducing money into the economy at the bottom- ie introducing inflation- was meant to mitigate exactly this problem. But as Rue said in another thread, you've got to see the BIG picture- you're still stuck in the capitalist paradigm. Capitalism is like a virus... is spreads everywhere it touches because it has hooked into the most fundamental law of human society: power concentrates unless it is actively opposed. But just because it spreads rapidly does not mean it is healthy or self-sustaining. I think that, were capitalism (which unfailingly evolves to monopolism) were to becomes the ONLY economic system worldwide, it would kill its host.

CTS: There IS an alternate approach to immigration: fight for worker's rights no matter where they come from. Increase the minimum wage above poverty level and provide everybody the same protection under labor law.

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Always look upstream.

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