Torn over I, Robot
POSTED BY: Arawaen
UPDATED: Monday, March 22, 2004 05:24
VIEWED: 6728
PAGE 2 of 2
I, too, am hoping (pleading) that the extended version repairs some very major problems I have with the movie. Peter Jackson was noted as saying "If you think the battle of Helm's Deep was good, you haven't seen anything yet." Well, what I saw was ... uh ... less than impressive. I'll take Two Towers over ROTK every time, even though it was a "middle" segment which had problems of its own that arose out of its nature.
I am a Tolkien purist ... yet not. To me it has always seemed that Tolkien had spent so much time in his world, he had trouble letting go, and the ending just ... dribbled off. Have some experience with that myself. From a purely story-driven viewpoint (IMHO--don't kill me) the ending was unsatisfactory. Peter Jackson was in a tough spot here. He knows what makes a good, dramatic movie but Tolkien is Tolkien. He was going to get flamed either way.
So in a way, I'd have liked to see him deviate from the book, to give the ending a little more satisfactory feel. And on some level, I'd have been outraged, too. Can't win.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the extended version, but...
Jen dao mei.
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You know, as much as I'd love to comment on the whole "LOTR Book vs. Movies" debate, I'm way too ignorant. Why? Well, while I did spend days out of my life watching the three films, and they were good films, there was no way I could slog through the slow-moving, overly-descriptive and convoluted LOTR books. It almost pains me to admit that Tolkien won. I couldn't finish the trilogy. I, who have read Tom Clancy books in one sitting, couldn't fight my way through LOTR. I still have my copies, but they look brand new from lack of use. For the record, I completely read "The Hobbit" and "Fellowship of the Ring". I read half of "The Two Towers" and "Return of the King" before becoming bored with the books and giving up.
Now, getting back on the Asimov track, I've read all his classic "Robot", "Empire", and "Foundation" novels many times. After having read several copies of "I, Robot" so many times that the books came apart, you can see that I loved the stories. After seeing that trailer, even with Alan in it, it brings cold chills up and down my spine. I shudder to think what Hollywood does with "Foundation". Asimov will spin in his grave...
BTW, I didn't thik "Starship Troopers" was all that bad. After having read the book, I just figured that as long as you took the movie as being unrelated to the book, you were fine. Oh, and I rooted for the bugs, too 
They can have my "Firefly" DVDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....
Oh yeah, 
you, FOX TV!!
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I did my senior english thesis on Isaac Asimov and, Alan Tudyk notwithstand, I doubt I'll watch it. The only good thing I remember about his writings was scientists on a lunar colony, arguing with a robot, using slide rulers.
Mary
Always a beast, never a burden. 
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"And actually, the added Faramir/Boromir/Denethor scenes in the extended edition showed that Faramir's interest in the Ring wasn't really in having the power for himself,his interest was in trying to win approval from Denethor"
I agree, this was a useful and moving addition. And while the scene muddles Tolkien's plot in a small way (having Gondor score a victory recapturing Osgiliath, rather than merely escaping and destroying the bridge), it does do a nice job of dramatizing the family tension that Tolkien only refers to. However, I think I preferred Tolkien's emphasis--that the tension emerges from Faramir's closeness to Gandalf, whom Denethor fears may seek to surplant him--rather than Jackson's--that Denethor thinks Faramir is useless compared to his older brother.
"Saying Boromir "shunned" the old ways makes it sound as if he tried them, and discarded them as worthless when it's more as if he didn't have the aptitude"
Fair enough. I think we're quibbling more over semantics than meaning. The "blood of Numenor" in Faramir was only a source of strength because he had the knowledge and wisdom to recognize its virtues and accept its burdens. Denethor possessed the "blood of Numenor" and only knowledge without true wisdom, which made him dangerous. The "blood of Numenor" in Boromir gave him strength and courage but he lacked both the knowledge and wisdom that warded his younger brother against corruption of power. Remember, Boromir nearly succumbed to the Ring not because he was weak or evil or greedy, but because he was strong and believed the lie that he could somehow use the Ring for good.
RE: Eomer and Denethor...
I, too, was surprised by Eomer's relative absence in the film. (For that matter, I was dumbfounded by how poorly the film used Eowyn, not evening giving the illusion of Dernhelm for a moment). And I also thought Denethor's death was mishandled. However, I think the expanded DVD will address both of these matters. Surely they will include Eomer mourning Theoden (a clip shown in the trailer but not in the theatrical cut). I'm also willing to bet they will include a scene about Denethor's palantir, which will make his fall seem more reasonable and ominous.
RE: Tolkien's writing...
Well, there's not much to be said here. If you don't like his writing, you don't like his writing. But he wrote the books they way he did for every specific reasons--and given how long they have been loved and by so many people, he clearly did something right. Tolkien's written ending is intentionally a denoument: he wanted to show the hobbits returning to their homes greater for the experience than when they left, like Odysseus and the suitors at the end of THE ODYSSEY. He also wanted to show the pitiful end of Saruman, who lost everything due to his spite. These are subtle themes that I understand why a filmmaker would not even want to try to depict on screen. Though I do make the case that they are not a "waste" on the printed page.
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Do the job. Get paid. Keep flying.
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About TLOTR ROTK:
Something had to be taken out. The movies were so long as it was, and there's no way Jackson could include absolutely every story arc. So he picked and chose, just like all adaptations do. Nobody noticed Tom Bombadil missing, did they? And I think his decision to leave that out was correct because his absence had little impact on the film.
All those -Er and -Or people (and I'm amazed you guys can keep track without a character diagram in front of you) had neat individual story lines. But in the scheme of things, there just isn't room for them all.
If anything, I think the movie ran too long. They could have swept up all the epilogue stuff with a voice over and a couple of meaningful facial expressions on the boat. I thought all that drawn out ending was a little too true to the book. Movies cannot be like the books.
I thought all in all, Jackson did a fantastic job with what was a huge challenge.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:
You boycotted "Return of the King"?!
I challenge you or anyone to make that movie exactly the way it is in the book and not lose all the audience except the die hards and purists.
I like the books very well when I read them but I have to admit they don't lend themselves well to a stand alone trilolgy of movies. I think the screen writers did their best and I enjoyed the "Retun of the King".
I thought Peter Jackson did a good job in Fellowship of the Ring in walking the fine line between being true to the books and changing what needed to be to make it work on film. With the expception of the Arwen story, the first movie couldn't have been made better in my mind. However, I think that Two Towers deviated too much into the writers doing their own thing. The character assassinations especially struck me as wrong; poor Gimli, Elrond, Theoden and Faramir. For this reason I chose to skip the last one.
I think the screenwriters were the weakest part of the whole trilogy. Everything else was pretty amazing. It is not the script either that bothers me, but the attitude of the screenwriters in not limiting their task to translating someone's vision to a new medium (something that does require changes and cuts as somethings work in print and not on screen, not to mention the limits of time.) Instead they felt the need to 'contribute' creatively to the the story.
I have admitted that I am a purist, I say that to make it clear that while I am critical of what they did, I recognize that I am biased and don't expect my opinion to taken as purely objective.
Arawaen
Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdScott:
However, I think I preferred Tolkien's emphasis--that the tension emerges from Faramir's closeness to Gandalf, whom Denethor fears may seek to surplant him--rather than Jackson's--that Denethor thinks Faramir is useless compared to his older brother.
I don't know that I preferred it,but I know what you're saying. The complexity of Denethor's insanity is something I knew they weren't going to be able to do properly, just because of time restraints. Just from reading the books, I personally always did have the impression that Denethor did think of Faramir as more or less useless. But you're right in that there was no movie explaination as to why Denethor disliked Gandalf so, and just a line or two would've taken care of that.
Quote:
Fair enough. I think we're quibbling more over semantics than meaning. The "blood of Numenor" in Faramir was only a source of strength because he had the knowledge and wisdom to recognize its virtues and accept its burdens. Denethor possessed the "blood of Numenor" and only knowledge without true wisdom, which made him dangerous. The "blood of Numenor" in Boromir gave him strength and courage but he lacked both the knowledge and wisdom that warded his younger brother against corruption of power. Remember, Boromir nearly succumbed to the Ring not because he was weak or evil or greedy, but because he was strong and believed the lie that he could somehow use the Ring for good.
Oh, believe me, I've often been accused of arguing over semantics
. I tend to get a little more picky when discussion LOTR movie vs. book, simply because I know that alot of the time, many of the people reading a forum like this aren't the big LOTR dorks like I am, and may have different impressions because of that. Ok, who am I kidding -- I argue semantics with people just as LOTR geeky as me. And see? Now at least I won't argue with you any more about Boromir/Faramir, cause I agree with everything you just said. Heh.
Quote:
RE: Eomer and Denethor...
I, too, was surprised by Eomer's relative absence in the film. (For that matter, I was dumbfounded by how poorly the film used Eowyn, not evening giving the illusion of Dernhelm for a moment). And I also thought Denethor's death was mishandled. However, I think the expanded DVD will address both of these matters. Surely they will include Eomer mourning Theoden (a clip shown in the trailer but not in the theatrical cut). I'm also willing to bet they will include a scene about Denethor's palantir, which will make his fall seem more reasonable and ominous.
Yeah, I was just irritated beyond belief that every media source on the planet made it clear who Dernhelm was months before the movie came out. That was one of my favourite parts as a kid when I first read the books. I was also irritated that Merry's relationship with Theoden got played down in favour of Eowyn.
You're right, I do think we'll get a bit more Eomer in the extended edition, and probably something about Denethor and the palantir as well. I think the latest rumour I read had the EE clocked at like 4 1/2 hours. But who knows how true that is.
I wish they'd kept that trailer clip in the theater version, though. I just hate when they do that.
Quote:
RE: Tolkien's writing...
Well, there's not much to be said here. If you don't like his writing, you don't like his writing.
I don't know how many people I've had that discussion with. Reading for fun is supposed to be just that -- fun--- and if you feel like you're doing it because you're "supposed to have read it", then what's the point? I can read Tolkien, but there are numberless writers whose styles just don't strike me the right way, and I can't read them, no matter how good the story may be. Good example: I can't stand Hemingway. His style bores me. He may write the best stories in history, but his style doesn't keep my attention.
"Jayne is a girl's name."
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Quote:
Originally posted by kalimeeri:
am a Tolkien purist ... yet not. To me it has always seemed that Tolkien had spent so much time in his world, he had trouble letting go, and the ending just ... dribbled off. Have some experience with that myself. From a purely story-driven viewpoint (IMHO--don't kill me) the ending was unsatisfactory.
Do you know,it was only right before Fellowship came out that I consciously realized how unrealistic it was to have so few "characters we know" die? I first read the books when I was 12 or so, and of course at that age, you don't want anyone you know by name to die, so it's ok when only a handful of them do.
My theory is this: It's been said that Tolkien based the War for the Ring on his WWI experiences. I would imagine that seeing so many of his friends die in a war, he was (consciously or not) reluctant to kill characters of his own creation. He'd seen enough people he knew die, and you do get attached to your characters when you write, especially when you spend 17 years or whatever writing them. He just didn't want to see any more friends die.
"Jayne is a girl's name."
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"Faramir did not merely "shrug off" the ring because the ring was suddenly weak or he was suddenly strong--but because the Honor of the Numenoreans burned stronger in him than the corruption of power."
But relistically how could a movie have shown this difference without going for another hour.
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We're kindred dork spirits, Ankhagogo. :) If you need proof of how seriously I take my literary analysis of the books and films, I offer the following:
http://www.geocities.com/scott_metz/lotrmain.html
I share exactly your same emotional reactions about the characters. Eowyn/Dernhelm was my favorite scene when I read the books in the 7th grade. I also agree that Tolkien eschewed unnecessary violence--arguably the biggest aesthetic difference between his vision and the films (though I certainly understand why the films needed to expand the action). Another possible explanation is that Tolkien was writing a pseudo "historical epic" like The Iliad or Beowulf, and in those traditions you can kill off minor characters in droves but the major ones are only supposed to perish at dramatically appropriate moments.
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Do the job. Get paid. Keep flying.
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