The American Civil War

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Thursday, June 12, 2025 05:51
VIEWED: 6760
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LEADB

Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
OMG!
I'm still drunk and I woke up on the floor!!! And this topic with with my name attached to it!!!!!??? er, sorry, but I don't remember starting this topic. It wasn't me, it was my evil twin or something...

-River I think

Heh, ok, I'm willing to let it slide. I have to admit I was a bit fuzzy on where you were going on this one. You'll have to see if you can link up a breath-a-lizer to your keyboard ;-)

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RAZZA

Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
1) People in the North owned slaves as well. There was no magical barrier that prevented people from the North from owning slaves.

6ixStringJack:

Actually, there was a barrier, but not a magical one. By 1804, all the states north of Maryland had aboished slavery within their borders. What's more, these states also passed legislation which made it practically impossible for Southern slave owners from reclaiming their "property" should slaves manage to escape and actually make it to a northern "free" states.

As Frem said, there were many reasons for the Civil War, but I believe Slavery was either directly or indirectly involved with most of those reasons. Tariffs which protected Northern industry would have also protected Southern industry if there had been any to speak of. Instead, southern states chose to base their economies upon slavery. Had they not done so, the tariff legislation in question would have had no adverse effect on them. Only through the prism of slavery do these tariffs become an issue for Southern states.

I agree that Slavery was not the only reason for the War, but it cannot be disputed that it played a major role in bringing it about.

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CAVALIER

Saturday, June 2, 2007 7:38 PM

The Confederacy claimed to be fighting for the freedom of its citizens.

Slaves were not its citizens, so there was no reason for it to care about them.

People who care about their own freedom do not necessarily care about that of anyone else.

DEEPGIRL187

Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
OMG!
I'm still drunk and I woke up on the floor!!! And this topic with with my name attached to it!!!!!??? er, sorry, but I don't remember starting this topic. It wasn't me, it was my evil twin or something...

-River I think

I've heard of drunk dialing, so I guess this is drunk posting. We forgive you. Just remember to keep all hands away from the keyboard next time.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So if it was evil to meddle in the way of the South (which was based on slavery, can't get around that fact) then it is evil to meddle in Iraq and the Sudan. Right?

I've never discounted slavery completely, but at the same time I'll just say that we have a whole lot of appliances to do our work now and supermarkets where we buy the food that was harvested or slaughtered for us and many American's, though they bitch about all of the free healthcare and welfare for Mexicans (or Illegals) here, they would have a huge problem with paying more for goods if they were paying for wages for the labor of American citizens. (I'm one of these people, but the reality is we're going to pay either way... the US dollar doesn't buy what it used to). I don't believe most Southerners, even the ones who hang banners that say "We Will Rise Again", would even want slavery. Nobody in America has owned slaves for a long time, and to say you wanted a slave would be your undoing so I wouldn't see the point. I'm not saying that the end of slavery was a bad thing at all, but I don't believe the war was based on slavery. It played a role, but it was a prop. It was just a buzzword or a talking point.

Personally, I think the only positive thing to come about the Union win was the end of slavery.

In the end, we lost a lot more.....

Our Constitution tells us it was illegal for our Government to impose an income tax, but just like anything else they impose, they started out small and now they take an average of at least 25percent of our collective income on a yearly basis, and although it fluctuates whether we have a Repug or Demon in office, it is always going up in the end. I mean... look at us now. If you work in a big city like New York or Chicago you have your picture taken 100 times a day. This may make proles feel safe, but it scares the shit out of me. Call me old fashioned......

The Southern Confederacy would not have stood for this.

..................

Anyways... to answer your question SignyM, you're f--ing right we don't belong over there. I've said that from the beginning. I believe I have multiple posts all over the boards saying that. I'm not exactly proud of the state of our nation and I really don't blame them for not wanting their grandkids to be addicted to video games, MTV, Afghani Idol and internet porn. I'm not saying they have a good life now... I'm just wondering who the hell we think we are to impose our ways over them, especially knowing that in doing so we're lineing the pockets of souless CEOs with gold. Frack them.

EDIT: Razza... I realize there were laws saying that people couldn't own slaves, particularly in the Northern states. Today we have laws too. They say that an employer is not allowed to hire employess, whether illegal or not, that are paid under the table. At the same time, we have criminal politicians telling us on the news networks that a good portion of our economy is based on the work that these illegals do.

This is pure confusion. This blatent manipulation of laws to suit a purpose makes me feel the same way I feel when somebody bastardizes the Bible to prove their point. People who are distracted or live with eyes wide shut buy into thier shit. I'm not a meat puppet for them anymore. People owned slaves on the North and the South prior to the war regardless of the law. Were people busted for it? Sure.... but how many people get busted today for illegal file sharing or underage internet porn, yet both of those "industries" still thrive. What about the "War" on drugs? Will that ever end? Does the Architect even want it to?

River - LOL... you're awesome.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:32 AM

I believe you will find that the Republican party in 1860 was progressive and liberal and was originally created to stop the expansion of slavery. It was not the conservative pro-capitalism party we have today.

Therefore one can not consider Lincoln a Republican by today's standards.

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FORSAKEN original

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:42 AM

I kinda see what you're getting at FMF... but then again, I think Bush will go down as the worst president in history and be known as a tyrant worldwide for a melinnia.......

I know you know that already....

It's high time for a third party. (or a fourth... or a fifth....)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

LEADB

Sunday, June 3, 2007 1:12 PM

Jack - " though they bitch about all of the free healthcare and welfare for Mexicans (or Illegals) here, they would have a huge problem with paying more for goods if they were paying for wages for the labor of American citizens. (I'm one of these people, but the reality is we're going to pay either way... the US dollar doesn't buy what it used to)."

And that's the kicker... you pay for it one way or the other. Instead of paying more for goods; we pay more for taxes. And if taxes don't meet the outlay, we print money; which as you point out depresses the value of the dollar further, which can be called an 'invisible tax'.

IMHO, either we need 'em, and need to figure out how to make it 'above board' so folks understand the real cost of things; or we don't, and figure out a way to secure our borders.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, June 3, 2007 2:02 PM

I agree with everything you said Leadb. I was just using the immigration issue, and also the illegal file sharing issue, as examples of how we break the law now, just like people would have broken the law back then. I would imagine that it was even more prevalent back then seeing as how there was a limited "police" force, limited technology, no IRS, and no income tax before the war. Basically, the FEDs would have had to come to your door to find out if you owned slaves without tax records, or the internet. Hell... did they even have phones yet? I can't remember....

Bottom line is we have the ability to secure our borders. We've done it before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback I mean... look at the name of the operation. We're too PC today to even say it, let alone go through with it. Personally it's all a little too Orwellian to me in itself, but I would prefer that they do it now to illegals than to wake up one day with a National ID card knowing that the "Orwell" is being directed my way too.

We're letting, practically encouraging, them to come over here now illegally. I think this is largely to do with the fact that the illegal worker situation is a great selling point for the national ID.... but I won't get into that here.

To get back to the main point, it sounds great in the textbooks that the Northern states abolished slavery and made it illegal when you're trying to make the Civil War come off as if it was a North vs South / Freedom vs. Slavery cause, but in reality, I don't believe that the new laws would have done much, if anything, to actually curb slavery among those in the North that owned them until they actually got busted or a couple of people they knew got busted and the word of mouth spread that Uncle Sam was kicking ass on this in their area, and punishing the lawbreakers heavily.

My "magical border" comment earlier wasn't refering to laws in the states. It was refering to human beings and the things we will do and say to justify things that are wrong or things we do that are illegal. Granted, with the south being mostly plantations, there was more of a "need" for slaves, but there were plenty of people who "needed" slaves in the North as well before the war. Of course there was no excuse for slavery and these people could have gotten by without them, but slaves were entrenched in their everyday way of life. It was simply standard operating procedure. Imagine today if riding lawnmowers were outlawed across the board because of some sort of "pollution issue". Even if the owners of the landscaping businesses were aware that their equipment was burning a hole right in the atmosphere over their heads, they more than likely would not be willing to suffer such a loss as having to scrap their fleet of riding lawnmowers because it would put them out of business. This would ruin their livelyhood or at least make the next few years or so miserable for the owners, regardless of their Geographical location.

I think it's very similar to our "global outsourcing" issues today, but in an inverse relationship. Today, an employer who is patriotic to America and refuses to outsource to India is going to go out of busniess if all of their competition starts outsourcing. There is no way the patriot could compete when it came to prices offered to the customer... and sadly, most of us will take a cheaper product over patriotism so this guy isn't going to stay in business too long. In terms of slavery, even among the North, if you were to get rid of your slaves right away when the laws came down and your competition did not, you would be paying for what your competition was not paying for. That's just bad business.

Even in the context of the Morrill tariff the article Frem posts states "Similarly, only one secessionist southern state congressman voted in favor of the tariff, along with 6 southern border state congressmen. In total, 87% of the northern congressmen supported the bill and 87.5% of southern congressmen opposed it." These states on either side we

LEADB

Sunday, June 3, 2007 3:52 PM

Right, I got distracted by the costs comment.

I'll be honest, I really can't remember how the civil war was presented in grades 1-12. I only know that I've known for a good long time that fundamentally the war was not initiated over slavery per se, only later during the war did it become such a lynch pin of public opinion/perception of the war.

Might have to go stick my nose in and see what the current crop of books say.

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