Torn over I, Robot
POSTED BY: Arawaen
UPDATED: Monday, March 22, 2004 05:24
VIEWED: 6728
PAGE 1 of 2
My first reaction to the I, Robot trailer was utter revulsion. As a purist it sickens me when studios stand on the achievements of others to pass their schlock off (shudders at the memory of Starship Troopers). I am such a purist that I boycotted Return of the King.
But now I find that Alex Proyas directed and Alan Tudyk is the robot. I love the previous work of both men. Why did they have to pretend to be Asimov?
Aarrrghhh!!
Somehow I am going to have to separate them in my mind, like I have done with Bladerunner and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.
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It just seems to me that the storyline just sounds a LITTLE bit like the Matrix. I'm just sayin. But it does seem like they just made a matrix prequel right there.
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Yah, I'm of two minds on the "I, Robot" film for exactly the same reasons. "Dark City" (another Proyas) is one of my favorite films...We shall see.
Quick note on "Troopers." At first, I loathed it as well. Then it dawned on me that the whole film is basically another level of those propaganda clips ("I'm doing my part!") interspersed though it. The real tip-off is a brief exchange between the reporter and the troops, a bit about the war actually having been started by humanity, which is brushed off with Remember Buenos Aeres and such.
In short, it dawned on me that the very things which I found annoying (the squeaky-clean, Hitler Youth hoorah-ness of it), were the things which created the tension of the film, which tempts you to share that world-view, while, tongue in cheek, challenging you to see how eerily seductive and scary (and unnervingly familiar!) it is.
Hoping Proyas, et al do the same with "Robot" and its apparent action-flick sensibilities...
But no, it does NOT look like Asimov.
Department of Redundancy Department
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You boycotted "Return of the King"?!
I challenge you or anyone to make that movie exactly the way it is in the book and not lose all the audience except the die hards and purists.
I like the books very well when I read them but I have to admit they don't lend themselves well to a stand alone trilolgy of movies. I think the screen writers did their best and I enjoyed the "Retun of the King".
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I have yet to see the trailer, but I can just imagine it: Asimov meets "Wild Wild West".
"Starship Troopers" was a terrible, terrible movie...specifically because the propaganda clips were so spot-on, the rest of the movie was unbearable (like watching a TV show just so you can wait for the commercials). My favorite comment about this film is the tag-line, "Based on the cover of a book by Robert Heinlein." I have since learned that the film was originally conceived as a parody of the book, but that only points to how flat it is. The only thing that film accomplished was to make me root for the Bugs.
About "Return of the King", I do think there is middle ground between the two extremes presented here. The film *is* very good and worth seeing, filled with lots of little nods that will warm the hearts of true fans of the book. It is a fair, good-faith adaptation to the screen, because it just isn't possible to present a literal translation. On the other hand, I think ROTK is the weakest of the three films...its changes are the most problematic for Tolkien's storyline and themes, weakening the plot. To wit, in the movie what is the point of Rohan's sacrifice at Pelennor Fields? The army of the dead shows up and instantly destroys the entire enemy force, so Theoden and every rider who perished died simply for bad luck and bad timing.
Jackson and his two co-writers, in my opinion, are real fans of the books who wanted to capture as much of Tolkien as possible in their screenplays, but they only slightly thought through the implications of some of their changes. Sometimes the choices are merely silly (like when they cut out Gildor Inglorion in FOTR and so had the hobbits escape Khamul the Nazgul by distracting him with a thrown stick), other times they simply weaken a theme (like having Faramir take the hobbits to Osgiliath, spoiling his contrast with Boromir), but some choices really were broadsides into the hull of the plot (the army of the dead).
* * *
Do the job. Get paid. Keep flying.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdScott:
"Starship Troopers" was a terrible, terrible movie...specifically because the propaganda clips were so spot-on, the rest of the movie was unbearable (like watching a TV show just so you can wait for the commercials).
Have to say I enjoyed the film on both levels - its a great special effects spectacle, and a very subversive film. I really can't comment on it compared to the book, as for my sins, Heinlein leaves me cold. As terrified as I am for "I, Robot", I don't much care for that aspect of Asimov's writing - the good doctor himself sold out in his career by shoehorning his three series together.
My worry is Foundation - its unfilmable if the books are done justice, and any film based on it might as well not be called Foundation.
[editted due to excessive commas)
"I threw up on your bed"
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"...other times they simply weaken a theme (like having Faramir take the hobbits to Osgiliath, spoiling his contrast with Boromir)..."
This is one of the changes that I appreciated the most.
It just never rang true to me that here is this horribly evil ring that has corrupted the most heroic of people during its weak phase, now continuing to grow in evil influence, and yet Faramir just shrugs it off as if it was nothing.
Having Faramir stuggle with alure of the ring builds conflict at a point where there needed to be a break between films. Also having the Faramir involvement with Frodo last longer allowed the Jackson team to bring the other independant plot lines up to speed without having a long Frodo absence from the screen. I think it was a good compromising choice.
I also don't believe that the contrast between Boromir and Faramir was spoiled.. after all Boromir lost the internal struggle against the ring and Faramir won his.
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"It just never rang true to me that here is this horribly evil ring that has corrupted the most heroic of people during its weak phase, now continuing to grow in evil influence, and yet Faramir just shrugs it off as if it was nothing."
Well, I'll give the purist defense to this valid concern. Tolkien was making a very subtle point about the nature of honor, nobility, and the legacy of civilization. Boromir was a warrior--as Faramir admits, he was an example of how the southern Dunedain were becoming more like the Middle-earth Men whom they led. Faramir was a scholar--he represented loyalty to the lost civilization of the Dunedain, to the ideals of Numenor the Downfallen. He had not forgotten the gifts, as well as the burdens, that distinguished the Dunedain from the Middle-earth Men. When Faramir refused the ring, it was not that doing so was easy for him. If Jackson's script did nothing else right in this scene, it kept Faramir's essential dialogue about the lure of the ring. Rather, Faramir relies upon the lore Gandalf has taught him to do what is right: he made an oath upon first meeting Frodo, and the code of honor carefully refined in him would not let him break it.
Faramir did not merely "shrug off" the ring because the ring was suddenly weak or he was suddenly strong--but because the Honor of the Numenoreans burned stronger in him than the corruption of power. Boromir, by contrast, had shunned the old ways and the burden of history, and when the ultimate challenge came his lack of wisdom left him vulnerable. Faramir in the book let's Frodo go because he possesses the wisdom to perceive the truth of what is right. In Tolkien's Catholic theology, Faramir's heart is closer to God. The movie, while perhaps drumming up a little extra visual excitement, sacrifices this theme when Faramir takes the hobbits to Osgiliath. In the movie Faramir is not fundamentally different than Boromir, just a little better.
(Though I will also add that the Osgiliath detour adds a serious plot problem to the film trilogy: if the Nazgul see Frodo and the One Ring in Osgiliath and nearly take it, why don't they tell Sauron so the Dark Lord isn't afraid that it is with Pippin and the Men of the West? This doesn't seem like something that would slip the Nazgul's mind. And Sauron's fear of the Ring being in the hands of Aragorn is his whole reason for accelerating his attack on Gondor.)
* * *
Do the job. Get paid. Keep flying.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdScott:
"It just never rang true to me that here is this horribly evil ring that has corrupted the most heroic of people during its weak phase, now continuing to grow in evil influence, and yet Faramir just shrugs it off as if it was nothing."
I'm one of those "that's not how it was in the book" people, and Faramir's change really hacked me off, until I heard the screenwriting reason for it, and it's partially what you just said. The Ring is supposed to be all-but-irresistable, and, while you can spend time explaining the reasons why in written form, you just can't do it in strictly visual form without changing the entire feel of the movie. Frodo and Sam had to be in some sort of peril at that point in the movie - they were just walking, and the point has been made that, in the book, Faramir was just kind of a friendly little reststop. I do understand that, in adapting a book to the screen, there are some things that are going to have to be changed. And actually, the added Faramir/Boromir/Denethor scenes in the extended edition showed that Faramir's interest in the Ring wasn't really in having the power for himself,his interest was in trying to win approval from Denethor. That I liked alot, because it showed the family dynamic going on there, and it showed the motivational difference between Boromir and Faramir, and it did both those things effectively, in a very short amount of screen time.
Quote:
Faramir did not merely "shrug off" the ring because the ring was suddenly weak or he was suddenly strong--but because the Honor of the Numenoreans burned stronger in him than the corruption of power. Boromir, by contrast, had shunned the old ways and the burden of history, and when the ultimate challenge came his lack of wisdom left him vulnerable.
I'm going to disagree with this, sorta. It says in Return of the King that" by some chance, the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him (Denethor), as it does in his other son, Faramir, yet did not in Boromir..."
Now that's all kinda genetically wonkily mystical and all that, but it wasn't that Faramir's honour was stronger, it was that he was closer to being a true Numenorean in blood than Boromir, and that gave him an extra resistance, if you will, to the evil. Saying Boromir "shunned" the old ways makes it sound as if he tried them, and discarded them as worthless when it's more as if he didn't have the aptitude (due to the whole dilution of Numenorean blood) for them and therefore wasn't interested. Like me and math -- sure,higher maths are useful, but I'm truly crap at it,so I'm just not interested.
I think Faramir and Boromir were equally honourable, but again, their motivations, in general,were completely different. Boromir was only interested in helping Gondor -- he couldn't see the bigger picture, and Faramir could.
Quote:
(Though I will also add that the Osgiliath detour adds a serious plot problem to the film trilogy: if the Nazgul see Frodo and the One Ring in Osgiliath and nearly take it, why don't they tell Sauron so the Dark Lord isn't afraid that it is with Pippin and the Men of the West?
My guess would be that perhaps the Nazgul are too much in the shadows to be able to differentiate one Hobbit from another. Sure, they can tell by height that this guy's a hobbit, and that one's a Man, but they may not be able to tell the difference in features.
You guys are always keeping me up waaaay too late.......
"Jayne is a girl's name."
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdScott:
About "Return of the King", I do think there is middle ground between the two extremes presented here. The film *is* very good and worth seeing, filled with lots of little nods that will warm the hearts of true fans of the book. It is a fair, good-faith adaptation to the screen, because it just isn't possible to present a literal translation. On the other hand, I think ROTK is the weakest of the three films...its changes are the most problematic for Tolkien's storyline and themes, weakening the plot. To wit, in the movie what is the point of Rohan's sacrifice at Pelennor Fields? The army of the dead shows up and instantly destroys the entire enemy force, so Theoden and every rider who perished died simply for bad luck and bad timing.
Oh, I have some serious Return of the King issues, but I think a large number of them will be solved, or at least smoothed, by the extended edition, because some of them are just, "Uh -- you left out some rather large plot points."
My second-biggest gripe is the shocking lack of Eomer, who is the second-highest ranking person in Rohan, and heir to the freakin' throne, and yet he's just background. He has like 6 lines in the whole movie, for heaven's sake. Don't get me wrong, I love Eowyn, always have -- but there are lines of hers that could have been left out to let her brother say more than, "Hey, let's go!"
My very biggest gripe is Denethor. They did spectacularly well up til they brought Faramir back, then Denethor just disinegrated into some sort of crazy baglady when in fact he was more Hannibal Lecter crazy. And it really irritates me because I hate Denethor with a passion -- I don't wanna hafta defend him in any way!
I sincerely doubt they're going to be able to fix that to my satisfaction. I'm sure they're staying up nights, wondering how to make me happy. Heh.
Seriously.......I'm going to bed now.
"Jayne is a girl's name."
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