Joss Post at Whedonesque
POSTED BY: FireflyPassenger
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 08:49
VIEWED: 40107
PAGE 8 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeWannabee:
ENTIRE POST
Wow.... just wow.
With all due respect, my lady, I think I'm in love.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by redhead:
Now, because I’m complaining of experiences I have had with some men does not mean you should feel some kind of collective guilt. I don’t blame you for these men's actions. I am just saying that our culture often portrays women as bodies to be conquered not people to be enjoyed. And our culture does indeed treat women poorly.
I'd like to bring this back down to the realm of the individual...although it's a common turn of phrase to refer to "our culture" or "the world," there really is no such animal. These are collective nouns--concepts, really. Only individual human beings have the ability to take actions. Only individual human beings have the ability to treat women poorly (or well). It is individuals who choose what to teach their children in terms of right and wrong treatment of women. It's individual ad executives who choose to disseminate negative images of women as objects. It's individual rap artists who choose to call women "hos" and "bitches" that are only good for one thing. And it's individuals who choose to buy those demeaning rap albums.
Sorry to get picky about this...but thinking in terms of collective nouns taking action is just not helpful. Only individuals have the power to act, the power to change, the power to make a different decision.
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It's my job to incite powerful yearning in the hearts and loins of my clients. No, silly, I'm not a Companion...I work at an advertising agency.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeWannabee:
ENTIRE POST
Wow.... just wow.
With all due respect, my lady, I think I'm in love.
LOL! Thank you kindly. :)
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It's my job to incite powerful yearning in the hearts and loins of my clients. No, silly, I'm not a Companion...I work at an advertising agency.
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You're welcome... and all joking aside, you are one awesome lady. From the beginning of your posts to the end of your sig, I'm lovin' it.
Not a Ron Paul fan by any chance, are you?
EDIT: Just read your last post. That's a hat trick!
You ever read "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell? If you haven't, I think you'll enjoy it. Here's the link: http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Does this not send mixed messages? Now I don't mean to generalize, but why does it seem that women often say they want one thing but act a completley different way? Why when I got older and acted colder and more distant around girls were they more attracted to me? Why would a girl be even more into me when she knew other women were and I had a wandering eye? I would have done anything for that girl in 8th grade and although I've always treated every woman I've ever been with with respect, I don't think I'll ever feel that way about another woman in my life.... at least I haven't yet.
I'm just wondering. I'm not bashing here. In any event, good for you for getting Martial Arts training.... I never made it past Orange belt in Kenpo myself.
What makes me take notice of this story is that you seem to equate physical attraction with whether women appreciate respect from men in general. Physical attraction is, after all, not a reward that is automatically paid for good behavior.
Maybe the girl was into a "bad boy" for the same reason you were into the popular (and apparently very pretty) girl, even though she had no interest: they were very sexually attractive.
After all, you said you didn't notice the other cute girls, who weren't the popular girl, even though they would have wanted you. Same goes for her.
Maybe the fact that women started noticing you more as you got older has more to do with the fact that you got more sexually attractive when you outgrew the braces and gained some height and moved more into an adult shape.
Anyway, being at the top of the food chain in terms of attractiveness, raises self-confidence. In the boy's case, it created arrogance. Because he was considered so attractive, girls let him get away with it because his attention raised their self-confidence.
It's irrational and stupid, but it's teenagers. And sex. A world of insecurities that needs to be overcome. They're hormonally charged up to the high heavens and things like equality and respect often take a backseat to what strokes our ego at that tender age. That's why we're not legal adults yet at that age, just because we are able to procreate. We're still mentally immature.
The same thing doesn't get excused in adults anymore. Or really, really shouldn't.
Because we should not rate our behavior just by how sexually rewarding it is, or how ego-stroking. You said the girl was always polite to you even turning you down. Do you think she didn't appreciate your respect, even though she wasn't attracted to you?
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You're welcome... and all joking aside, you are one awesome lady. From the beginning of your posts to the end of your sig, I'm lovin' it.
Not a Ron Paul fan by any chance, are you?
EDIT: Just read your last post. That's a hat trick!
You ever read "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell? If you haven't, I think you'll enjoy it. Here's the link: http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm
6ixStringJack, you have great taste in women. If only you were a little older...
I am, as a matter of fact, a huge fan of Ron Paul ( http://www.ronpaul2008.com) 
I'll check out Russel's work...thanks for the tip!
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It's my job to incite powerful yearning in the hearts and loins of my clients. No, silly, I'm not a Companion...I work at an advertising agency.
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Jack, I think AgentR spoke pretty eloquently to your question
Quote:but I also think there are women who are attracted to bad boys and this has less to do with the bad boys’ individual attractiveness than it has to do with our culture’s glorification of those same type of men.
why does it seem that women often say they want one thing but act a completley different way?
“Our culture,” there is that phrase that Kwannabe doesn’t like
Kwannabe, I expect the differences between our positions might be more a matter of semantics than actual practice. So I’ll try stating my position clearly and then you can see where we differ. You say,
Quote:
Only individuals have the power to act, the power to change, the power to make a different decision.
And I agree but I have to disagree with your statement that
Quote:
although it's a common turn of phrase to refer to "our culture" or "the world," there really is no such animal.
Even though individuals are the only ones who can actually change, “our culture” is a reflection of the ideas that individuals grouped together have. In other words, when enough individuals treat women as equals, then our culture will no longer treat women as lesser than men. Individuals change culture but culture and its influence on us exists. Thus, when I say “our culture treats women poorly,” I understand that it is individuals who must create change but I also know that the results of large numbers of people thinking and acting certain ways are going to have an influence on women and men’s behavior.
So, individually, I try to live my life so I won’t be a victim. I practice martial arts with passion and patience. (I possess my own gun but I don’t plan on carrying it with me but I respect your need to carry yours. Mine is for dealing with literal rattlesnakes and skunks not metaphorical ones
) I try to live in such a manner as to be worthy of respect. I try to treat others with the same respect I would like to receive. I try to speak out politely but firmly when I see injustice. And, I use ‘activism!” I contribute financially to groups who work for change. I sign petitions and I write letters. I believe with Whedon that the action of the individual, while in the end is the only real change that happens, must be bundled with other individuals also acting. “True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself” to quote Whedon. “All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones. And nudge yourself past the brink of tacit support to action. Once a month, once a year, or just once. ... Even just learning enough about a subject so you can speak against an opponent eloquently makes you an unusual personage. Start with that.
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KayleeWannabee,
Quote:
... Women especially: BE the change you wish to see in the world. If you want "the world" to treat women like valuable human beings, treat yourself like a valuable human being! And in YOUR WORLD, you will be a valuable human being, and an example to other women and men! If you want "the world" to stop victimizing women, stop allowing yourself to be victimized...and in YOUR WORLD, there will be one less victim....
That's a marvelous sentiment and does indeed bear repeating. I've been re-reading thru these posts and have been thinking about the comments. As a therapist who has worked with physically and sexually abused women and children I am reminded of frequent remarks, directed more to the women than the children, that they stayed with their abusers, that they went back to them, that they didn't leave. It's true that the average women leaves 7 times before she's gone for good, if she isn't killed. I think it's not unlike why women don't stand up and oppose those societal norms that lead to their victimization. Internalized sexism, like internalized racism is a factor. Having been born into an environment that normalizes oppression is another component.
While I don't see guilt as particularly helpful, I do think we have certain internalized entitlement schemas that keep us blind to our own isms. We deny it because we simply can't see it. We accept the reality that is part of our worldview so it doesn't look like entitlement but rather that is the way things are. When we are challenged we become defensive and sometimes confused. It's like cracking the persona of someone with a severe personality disorder.
In working with victims, sometimes for years, it comes to a point in therapy where I challenge them to stop being victims. Even with the children, at some point I tell them, "What happened to you was wrong. It will never be OK. No one can change it. But here you are today. You not only survived but you are stronger, smarter and you can be more than a victim." People who are abused or victimized frequently identify with their oppressors because the oppressor appears strong. They would rather be strong like the oppressor than weak as the victim. They can blame themselves and decide that it was their fault and that they somehow deserve it. I have found it ususally doesn't work to push people too soon, before they are able to accept, believe and see themselves as anything but a victim.
It's complicated. That's all I'm saying. It may seem simple but we humans tend to be a mixed bag. I have to remember that or I wouldn't be able to keep doing my job. I'd become either too involved and overwhelmed by the pain or I'd become too hard and uncaring.
Siri
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It's hard to jump into these conversations sometimes because they move so damn fast and you can't help feeling that someone has already said it anyway. I have tried to read everything. But if I missed, or misunderstood something I apologise.
Regardless, her is my two penneth worth.
There has been a lot said about not being a victim.
This girl rebelled; she apparently started "seeing" someone from outside her religion. She was rewarded for her defiance by being stoned to death.
I admit freely that my understanding is limited but there seem to be some heavy parallels with the animal kingdom. Pack behaviour, the dominant male wants his genetic material to be passed on so he uses his physical strength to control access to reproductive females.
Things have moved on, and the males in this case banded together to control an errant female for the benefit of the genetic material of the pack (religious group in this case) as a whole.
So they behaved like animals.
Is this right, hell no. Am I surprised, no. There are a lot of humans I like very much as individuals but as a race, I'm not a fan.
But it was no doubt an effective message to the rest of the females. If you don't behave we will kill you.
Why on earth would anyone, irrespective of sex put up with this kind of thing? Why didn't all the women rise up and slay the oppressors? Because we want to survive, the urge to survive is a pretty important part of our make up as animals never mind human beings. Look at capture bonding and the Stockholm syndrome.
Policemen were present, and did not intervene which suggests they condoned the killing. Even if the women rebelled where would they go?
It is easier to be free in a society that allows you freedom.
Personal example on a much smaller scale, my dad died when I was twelve. I absolutely adored him but I've found out some things about him as an adult that are not easy to accept.
He was a repressive, at times violent bigot.
I never saw this side of him. However my sisters, brother and half sisters (who are all at least twenty years older than me, I'm 37) did.
The girls were not allowed to carry on their education past High School despite all being bright. (Because they'd just go and get married and their education would be a waste).
They were not allowed Make up.
They were not allowed to wear trousers.
They were not allowed to wear sleeveless clothes.
They were not allowed, they were not allowed...
Ok, none of these things were a threat to their lives. But every damn one of them was married by the time they were eighteen just to get away from home. Every one of them is divorced now.
One of them brought my brother some jeans (he was about fourteen). She was told never to darken my parent’s door again. Not because jeans are the instruments of the devil, but because she had defied my parents edict that my brother wore proper trousers at all times.
I didn't have this influence growing up. My mother had a whole other bunch of issues which are not relevant so I'll skip onwards.
Dad wasn't there to teach me that doing things my own way was punishable.
I left home at nineteen, had a social life, some boyfriends. Earned my own money, went where I wanted to go either with friends or if no-one else wanted to go on my own.
One guy tried to teach me the error of my ways. He was very sweet to start of with. Until I moved in with him. He was a drunk and he tried to tell me what to do, but I wouldn't do it just because he told me.
He tried to stop me seeing my friends, but I saw them anyway.
When he exhausted every other avenue of control he would come home drunk and pissed off and try to force me to have sex with him.
He was drunk so I could run away and he was so uncoordinated that he couldn't control me physically anyway.
And he hit me a couple of times.
Yet I didn't leave straight away. It took another couple of months and several repeats of this behaviour and his tearful apologies. (I used to be ashamed of this, but I think I've forgiven myself now).
F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Siri:
KayleeWannabee,Quote:
... Women especially: BE the change you wish to see in the world. If you want "the world" to treat women like valuable human beings, treat yourself like a valuable human being! And in YOUR WORLD, you will be a valuable human being, and an example to other women and men! If you want "the world" to stop victimizing women, stop allowing yourself to be victimized...and in YOUR WORLD, there will be one less victim....
That's a marvelous sentiment and does indeed bear repeating. ... It's true that the average women leaves 7 times before she's gone for good, if she isn't killed.
It's complicated. That's all I'm saying.
Siri
Hi Siri,
Thanks for your kind words of acknowledgement. As you know, it's very difficult for people to change...generally, human beings don't change until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same. It was a great day for me when it became too excruciating for me to go on as I was.
Part of my own healing process included working with an NLP practitioner (good discussion of NLP at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming/
Neuro Linguistic Programming is a set of psychological techniques for accessing your brain's "software" and reprogramming it to allow you to be a more resourceful person. My NLP coach asked me something that changed my life:
What if, on some level, you allow, promote or create everything that happens to you?
This thought is incompatible with the state of victimhood--which is why he asked me.
Which is why I fought it, and was offended by it, at first. (I was still all about being a helpless victim.) He emphasized that it may or may not be true, but perhaps I could examine how my behaviors and thoughts would be different if it were true.That question was a turning point for me. You suddenly start taking responsibility for what you think and how you behave, if it may be true that you allow, promote, or create everything that happens to you. (Again, it may or may not be true, but you behave in a much more resourceful and responsible manner if you presuppose that it is true.)
What this boils down to is that victims and perpetrators are two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. I now believe that victims who return to abusive situations are just as responsible for what happens to them as the perps are.
It sounds horrible and cold (and feminists would probably be appalled, but I'm not one so I don't care). It's not about blaming the victim; it's about dealing with your surroundings and the people in your life in a more responsible way, and empowering yourself to be self-sufficient.
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It's my job to incite powerful yearning in the hearts and loins of my clients. No, silly, I'm not a Companion...I work at an advertising agency.
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