The Root of all Evil : The God Delusion
POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Thursday, December 17, 2015 06:12
VIEWED: 49488
PAGE 20 of 32
Quote:No, it’s not. You claimed that a person is a slave to a religion regardless of free will, because there are consequences applied to the choices that person makes. But there are consequences applied to anyone’s choices as a fundamental rule of nature, regardless of religion. So therefore, we are a slave to nature. But then you claimed that we aren’t slaves to nature because we can choose to accept the consequences, but the same is true of a religion, so therefore we aren’t slaves to religion. Can you see how I might be a little confused with your argument? How do you reconcile this?
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I find it interesting that you choose to respond to this bit and ignore everything else, such as the fact that your focus on physical laws is completely invalid to the question of free will.
Also to all:
This has been an extremely interesting discussion, and I’ve enjoyed it, but I have a commitment tonight so my participation must end here, until I have more time.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I find it interesting that you choose to respond to this bit and ignore everything else, such as the fact that your focus on physical laws is completely invalid to the question of free will.
No, it’s not. You claimed that a person is a slave to a religion regardless of free will, because there are consequences applied to the choices that person makes. But there are consequences applied to anyone’s choices as a fundamental rule of nature, regardless of religion. So therefore, we are a slave to nature. But then you claimed that we aren’t slaves to nature because we can choose to accept the consequences, but the same is true of a religion, so therefore we aren’t slaves to religion. Can you see how I might be a little confused with your argument? How do you reconcile this?
I never said that we aren't, in essence, slaves to the fact that there are consequences to actions.
I am merely saying that God expects us to love him for being a slaver and he could have well just left out the free will thing if he won't let people use it without bad consequences. It's a selfish child that says "Free will! But if you don't choose this one path, it's eternal damnation! [s]Mwahahaha.[/s]"
The mere universe, on the other hand, is neutral, without expectations. There is no hypocrisy of love, or vanity. It's not sentient. It's just a place with a set of rules.
Does anyone, when questioning free will, actually consider physical laws? They are not subject to will or choice. Why do you keep bringing them up? God doesn't attach moral judgment to physical laws and neither do we. It's the things that involve our conscious choices that we judge and that's what we refer to when talking about free will.
And I think that we are less limited in our exercise of free will without the visions of hell after death hanging overhead.
If you live a life without regret, and somehow it's in conflict with God's law, you go to hell. Without the factor of hell, you have just lived a life without regret. Seems freerer to me.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
First, I would like to reiterate that I do not go to church, I have not given myself to God and I don't regularly go around preaching because
a)nobody listens to anything I say anyhow, so I don't feel the need to preach religion.
b) I admit that I don't have a clue myself so to preach God's word would be very hypocritical of me.
I just get kind of pissed off when my youngest brother (who is living at a math and science academy his Junior and Senior year of highschool) says there is no god because that's what a majority of his "people" believe. He's got a Spagetti Monster T-Shirt and it's the wallpaper on his computer. He carrys around a Bible and quotes the most horriffic lines in it to people all the time. I agree with Cit that Atheism is not a religion, but when I see things like this I start thinking that it is becoming very religion-like.... especailly when you have atheists going door to door trying to preach atheism. I know it's a joke when they do it today, but who knows? Tomorrow there might be thousands of Atheists going door to door preaching why there is no God at all. Anyhow, I think 15 years old is way too young to be so adamant about anything let alone the existance or lacktherof of God, especially considering that science has never (and according to Cit, can never) prove that God doesn't exist.
I see how it would be easy for people to hate God. Life is tough. It doesn't matter who you are. Even if your rich and powerful, your yacht engine breaks down at the most inoppurtune time. Blame it on the rain, blame it on chance, blame it on God... it's just easy to do.
Now in the hypothetical circumstance that there is a God, he did not create the evil in the hearts of man, but he knew from the beginning when he gave us free will that not only were we capable of great evil inside of us, but it would ultimately be the end of his creation. This saddens God, but he realizes that it is better for the people to maintain their free will than to be mindless zombies always making the "right" choices and living in Utopia. What good is Utopia if you're incapable of recognizing how wonderful it is because there is no alternative? You can't have light without dark, you can't have good without evil, you can't enjoy pleasure if you've never felt pain.
This is what the American Government and I assume the UK Government and most of Europe is trying to do now. They're legislating morality everyday and trying to take away the human element of humanity. (Traffic cams, taxing the hell out of cigarettes and booze, marajuana illegality, "click it or ticket", etc., etc., etc....) To understand more what I'm trying to say, I recommend reading an old Sci-Fi book called "Jesus on Mars" by Phillip Jose Farmer. (I neglected to leave the Wikepidia link on the book because it really is good and it would be a shame to ruin it by reading a few paragraph blog about it. Feel free to Wiki it yourself though if you don't want to read it). Just so you know, it is a very anti-religious satirical book so I'm not trying to make anybody read the Bible here.
To say that God is evil because man is evil is not only not knowing the full story, but it is blatently ignoring it and doing whatever you can to avoid knowing it. It is nothnig more than wearing ignorance like a badge of honor. Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone was good because to live in that world we would all have to be animals... mere pets. We would live purely via instinct and would never make any decisions for ourselves. This is my main problem with perscription drugs today, especially after reading "Brave New World" and watching movies like Equilibrium. 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
If you live a life without regret, and somehow it's in conflict with God's law, you go to hell. Without the factor of hell, you have just lived a life without regret. Seems freerer to me.
This is assuming that you are incapable of guilt and conscience free. Hannibal Lechter lived a life without regret.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I just get kind of pissed off when my youngest brother (who is living at a math and science academy his Junior and Senior year of highschool) says there is no god because that's what a majority of his "people" believe.
Question: Would you be pissed off if he believed in god because that what his people believe? If no, doesn't that seem hypocritical?
Quote:
but when I see things like this I start thinking that it is becoming very religion-like
I see it too, and being an atheist it's kind of annoying.
Quote:
especailly when you have atheists going door to door trying to preach atheism. I know it's a joke when they do it today, but who knows? Tomorrow there might be thousands of Atheists going door to door preaching why there is no God at all.
Question again: Do you have a problem with theists going door-to-door preaching religion? If no doesn't that seem hypocritical?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Question: Would you be pissed off if he believed in god because that what his people believe? If no, doesn't that seem hypocritical?
No, I would not be pissed off about it because it's not with snarky or bad intent if he believed in God because of his "people". I don't believe that a majority of Atheists are anything like how he is acting. Neither do I believe that most people who buy into a particular religion are anything like how he's acting. He's acting like a little asshole about it, quoting shitty lines out of the Bible that he barely understands, and that's what really pisses me off. That Spaghetti Monster thing is like a damn Nike Symbol on his chest and it seems almost like he's doing it because that's what the smart kids do to be cool. He'll realize one day, like I did, that you don't know everything when you're 15, no matter how much you think you do. It wasn't that long ago for me that my world was turned upside down and I relized that the more I knew, the more questions I had. At the end of the day, I really don't know shit.
Quote:
Me: but when I see things like this I start thinking that it is becoming very religion-like
Quote:
You: I see it too, and being an atheist it's kind of annoying.
Heh.... yeah. It's kind of like being a big fan of a band when they're underground and then they have this huge hit and are the big thing all summer and then you look like you're trendy for wearing the same band shirt you've had for the last five years.
Quote:
Question again: Do you have a problem with theists going door-to-door preaching religion? If no doesn't that seem hypocritical?
I've actually had this discussion with my brother before. No I don't have a problem with people of a particular faith preaching door to door. I have turned them away before. The Johova's Witnesses frequent my apartment complex and I've had to turn them away multiple times before. No biggie. There's a difference when Atheists do it, though and that's because they do it out of spite, not love or caring. Now I'm not trying to say that Athiests are uncaring or incapable of love at all, nor am I trying to imply that religious folk are in any way more caring or loving, but what would be the real reason for an Atheist to go door to door other than to piss people off? A true believer certainly isn't going to convert because a non believer is speaking to them. They do it with big smirks like my brother's and they're trying to get under religious folk's skin.
I get a vibe off of you that you're an Atheiest who doesn't feel the need to proclaim to the world that you are and try to convert others. I'm thinking you just don't care. There's no God, and that's the end of it. It's not some cool little club you belong to. I don't understand how somebody could ever come right out and say with conviction that there is no God, but that's freedom, aint' it?
I don't know.... it just seems to me that if Atheists start banding together and start forming groups and communities, it's completely besides the point. Did you see that South Park where Cartman went into the future to get the Nintendo WII? There was no religion in the future, but the different sects of scientific atheists were fighting and killing each other in the name of Science. This all just seems vaguley familiar to me.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I get a vibe off of you that you're an Atheiest who doesn't feel the need to proclaim to the world that you are and try to convert others.
Yes. If the issue comes up I will present my views and correct others when they are factually wrong, but as far as I'm concerned the only time I care about someone else's religion is when it affects me.
Quote:
I'm thinking you just don't care. There's no God, and that's the end of it. It's not some cool little club you belong to.
Meh, not really. If you want to get technical about labels I'm a Strong Agnostic-Apatheist combo, meaning I don't believe there is a god but I don't deny the possibility that I'm wrong, but in the end I don't care anyway. If you want to get specific about my actual beliefs then I'd tack on that I think that if there is a god then we don't have the slightest clue as to it's true nature or intentions, we aren't special to it and all the religions we've made up were exactly that, made up. It's just a hell of a lot easier to simply say "I'm an atheist" rather then try to explain my actual beliefs when the next sentence from the person I'm talking to is going to be the same thing either way "You don't really mean it though right?".
Quote:
I don't understand how somebody could ever come right out and say with conviction that there is no God, but that's freedom, aint' it?
I see no evidence that there is a god, I see no reason why we need a god. The absence of need means that there doesn't have to be a god, and the absence of evidence indicates that there is not a god.
To me the existence of the gods of our religions raises more questions then it answers, and the existence of a god that hasn't seen fit to give us "divinely inspired" rules to follow is simply irrelevant to everyday life anyway.
Quote:
I don't know.... it just seems to me that if Atheists start banding together and start forming groups and communities, it's completely besides the point.
I can see where you are coming from. The thing is though that churches serve as social hangouts as well as religious buildings, so atheists that form groups like that are trying to recreate the social aspect that they don't necessarily get otherwise.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Me: but when I see things like this I start thinking that it is becoming very religion-likeQuote:
You: I see it too, and being an atheist it's kind of annoying.
Heh.... yeah. It's kind of like being a big fan of a band when they're underground and then they have this huge hit and are the big thing all summer and then you look like you're trendy for wearing the same band shirt you've had for the last five years.
Not so much really, it just seems like we're selling out, stooping to a lower level by proselytizing like theists. I understand why people are doing it though, particularly Dawkins, he's been part of the evolution "debate" for a long time and he sees a constant stream of people who have been misinformed, underinformed or outright lied to in the name of religion regarding evolution. At the same time he's annoyed because atheists get treated differently from everyone else, atheism is not a religion but it is a religious choice and the choice of atheism gets much less respect then the other choices. If I told people I was a Buddhist almost no one would comment on it, but if I tell them I'm an atheist they usually say "You don't really mean it though right?" and "How can you possibly not believe there's not a god?" and my favorite "Well you must just not have heard the Word then, because if you had you'd never doubt". Part of Dawkin's goals in his crusade that he's on now is to get people to respect atheism whether they agree with it or not, though I think that goal has fallen by the wayside.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm pretty much in agreement or can at the very least sympathize with everything you've said here.
My only thing is about athiest forming groups to recreate the social aspect they don't get otherwise. I just dont' get it. If there isn't a God, and that's what they believe, fine. There's plenty of things that people, no matter what they believe or choose not to believe, can get together and do. Things where religion would most likely not come up. I rarely get into religion with anyone in the "real world" except for my Grandma, who's an old school Episcopalian who's always trying to get me to church and my little brother and his damn Spaghetti monster. I can't even recall anytime where I was out with friends ever that religion ever came up, although there may have been a forgotten night or two where we were all stoned out of our minds and the subject came up. The truth is, 98% of the time, no matter what you're doing, religion is a subject that will never come up. I just find it almost comical that Atheists would even want to get together simply because a disbelief in God is the only common ground they share from the start. I'm an un-confirmed Catholic and I've known plenty of Catholics that I think are assholes that I'd never want to share a room with. I guess I'd have to be of the Atheist mindset to really understand.
About your second post though. I should apologize for calling Athiests idiots (or whatever terms I used), although I still think that the closemindedness that 100% disbelief embodies is completely flawed. That was more me ranting about my brother than anything else and it is unfair of me. I know you know what I'm saying.... being that in actuality you wouldn't even classify yourself as an Athiest but simply do because it's easier than telling everyone the 3 paragraphs that follow when you tell them what you really think. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
About your second post though. I should apologize for calling Athiests idiots (or whatever terms I used)
Stupid, bullheaded and close-minded.
Quote:
although I still think that the closemindedness that 100% disbelief embodies is completely flawed
But have you asked the question "how many atheists who will tell me flat out that there is no god, would admit to being wrong if they were proven wrong?". I think you are attributing too much dogmatism to atheists, and I think that most atheists would actually fall under the Strong Agnostic subgroup if they bothered to investigate the different subgroups.
Quote:
I know you know what I'm saying.... being that in actuality you wouldn't even classify yourself as an Athiest
Actually I think that the Strong Agnostic subgroup fits better under the Atheist group then the Agnostic group, perhaps renamed as "Weak Atheist"? So by my own (obviously superior
) classification system I would fall under Atheism.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME