Joss Post at Whedonesque
POSTED BY: FireflyPassenger
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 08:49
VIEWED: 40107
PAGE 6 of 14
Chris, you have some valid points.
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Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I've always wondered, if women really are as strong as men, why have they been able to be subjected to men in nearly every reach of the known world?
Chris, many sociologists have posited that thousands of years ago, women were the centers of power and through the centuries that changed. Just because men were at one time low on the totem pole doesn't mean that they were somehow weaker per se. After all, now they are on top, and we can see that they aren't weaker. Thus, following that argument, just because women aren't currently in power does not mean that they are somehow weaker.
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What Joss is writting about reminds me slightly of "White Guilt". Convincing any group, ethnic, sexual, or otherwise that they're entitled to something is not empowering them, it's taking power away.
What you are saying is at least partially true. However,if you were unaware that a rattlesnake was at your feet and I pointed it out to you, that would not be taking power away. It would be giving you information and empowering you. Perhaps I have forgotten part of Joss's post, but at no point did he say that women were entitled to anything but respect and freedom from abuse.
What I most worry about is that many people posting here have forgotten what was surely the most important point Joss made. No one, male or female, deserves what happened to Dua Khalil. But because she was female, this stoning of a young helpless girl happened. And it is wrong. And we need to take it as a call to action--be that as simple as donating money or as difficult as changing our behavior. Or our minds...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
Can I have a houseboat instead of a house?
Houseboat? Sure thing.... but not up here in Wisconsin. Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here. When I come to visit I want to be able to go skinny dipping in December. Start your search for Utopia waaaaaaay south.
I read your post again after I posted and I know you weren't really saying that it's all men's fault like I thought you were when I first read it. I'm really sorry to hear about your acquaintence and her incident.
Just don't forget that we're not all bad guys. ;)
SCHMOE - I posted about the attack a while back in a "near death experiences" thread in here before. It's really quite a long story, so I won't get back into it here. Thanks for asking. There were no long term physical problems from the incident, actually the doctors said that he must have been a surgeon to have cut me so deep in my lower back without puncturing a single organ. I'm not the party guy I was before that night though. I'm actually rather anti-social about 80% of the time now, though that comes and goes. (What triggers it, I don't think I'll ever know). I'm pretty much always on guard when I'm out anywhere now too, which in itself isn't a bad thing considering the state of affairs in the world today. Funny thing, how the mind works.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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[quoute]Chris, many sociologists have posited that thousands of years ago, women were the centers of power and through the centuries that changed. Just because men were at one time low on the totem pole doesn't mean that they were somehow weaker per se. After all, now they are on top, and we can see that they aren't weaker. Thus, following that argument, just because women aren't currently in power does not mean that they are somehow weaker.
I'd say that it meant they were weaker at the time. Anyone who allows themselves to be subjected to someone else is weaker than them. I might be able to physically pummel President Bush, but he is stronger politically than I am physically. Evolution is a tricky thing for humans, survival of the fittest stopped being a purely physical and mental game a long time ago. We can now have areas like socialism, politics, and money. I don't know what men would have used to get ahead, truthfully I don't care.
This goes deeper than just gender. It can easily be applied to race as well, like I alluded to with the "White Guilt" reference. But the main point is this: If you associate yourself with Repressed Group X, then you're asking for a hand out. Be the one person of that group who makes it. Enough of you start thinking like that, and the group wont be repressed anymore. I really hate this idea of anyone trying to rally people to activism for ideas like "equality". I'll fight in a war to keep people from getting stoned to death, because that's wrong, but it's not wrong because it's a female, it's wrong because she's a sentient creature. Why the hell does her being female have any relevence? Would this have been better if it was a guy? Would the mass killings be less tragic if it was a majority of males being killed?
As far as earning respect and equality goes, she'd need to earn her place like anyone else.
Also, I don't know why so many online sources list this as being "almost exclusively" done to females. Islamic families will offer up their men just as often to settle fueds over land and property. I've personally witnessed something as stupid as two families giving over one male member to the other and executing them to settle a dispute. That's right, both families lose a member so that they can call the fued "even". So from my perspective, women are not getting killed for being female, rather, people are getting killed for living in a shitty corner of the globe.
[IMG]
Ride down from Asgard to the battlefield,
Bringer of the valiant dead who died but never yielded,
Carry we who die in battle over land and sea,
Across the rainbow bridge to Valhalla,
Odin's waiting for me.
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You're right, Chris,
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it's not wrong because it's a female, it's wrong because she's a sentient creature
Of course, it is not more wrong to kill a female than a male. I don't believe that was Whedon's argument. I believe his argument was that because Dua Khalil was female that violence and abuse were more likely to happen to her.
He then argues that we should work to end this particular kind of violence. I'm sure you would agree that Whedon did not advocate letting violence against men continue. He was just speaking about a certain behavior and how to work to abolish that specific behavior. If I were to say, "Chris, better chop off that rattlesnake's head" that would not mean that I wouldn't want you to squish a Black Widow spider should it attack you. I am just warning of the danger that is most in my mind at the moment. Whedon had just watched Dua Khalil's sad death and he was attempting to help by speaking out against that specific kind of violence that he had just seen. A violence that led to a terrible tragedy.
Part of the tragedy of Dua Khalil is that she cannot earn respect any more. She is dead and she is dead because she is a woman. That did not make her weak, that made her powerless. There is a difference. To use a show we both love as an example, Mal was not weak but he was powerless in Niska's chamber.
To urge humanity to band together to aid the powerless as Whedon did is not "taking power away" as you stated in your earlier post. If you have ever tried to break a bunch of sticks bundled together, you know how strong that bundle can be. Whedon is attempting to bundle people together so that together they are powerful enough to defeat those who would perpetuate a particular kind of violence--that against women.
Just because Whedon advocates for women doesn't mean that he can only see that cause as worthy. And if the cause you want to fight for is non-violence against both genders in the Middle East, then more power to you. We all need to fight for the cause that speaks to our individual hearts. Just remember that fighting for the powerless is not taking power from anybody. It is adding power to everybody.
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Just as was said before, this woman did not die because she was a woman. She died because she broke the backwards laws or rules or whatever the fuck in a shitty corner of the globe. As was also stated before, many men die prematurley there for things we would think unfathomable in the 21st century in "civilized" society. Don't even pretend to know the statistics and tell me that women die more often there than men do. I wouldn't believe any numbers you gave me, and you shouldn't believe any numbers somebody tells you either.
Don't worry your little head about it.... the Alliance (Dubya's Army boys) are over there now meddling and in 50 or a 100 years or maybe even sooner they'll be watching Iraqi MTV racking up debt they'll never be able to pay off and having oral sex at 13 years old just like we do over here.
If you want to make this a cause, more power to you. I don't see how anything you do couldn't end up being a complete waste of time. I think there's probably a million causes you could put yourself to use for stateside, but to each their own....
Personally, this is a complete non-issue for me. I feel no guilt about her death and I feel no sympathy for her people. This is not a race thing, this is not a religion thing. I don't wish them ill, I just couldn't care less. I don't know these people, they mean nothing to me. Call me cold, call me insensitive, call me inhuman, call me what you will as long as it's not racist or sexist or any other nasty "-ist" word that people throw about to damage the reputations of others and maniputlate and twist their words, but I have me and I have my own to worry about. This world is going to start getting a lot tougher for everybody as the 3rd world becomes mainstream, populations continue to grow exponentially, and our earthly resourses grow ever more scarce, and it will be the hardest on those of us who have practically had everything handed to us their entire lives.
Who do you think is going to have an easier time adapting to having next to nothing when that day comes? The guy living in the McMansion with heat, A/C, 5 televisions, 3 computers, and a relatively uncorrupted suburbanite police force..... or the guy that lives with practically noting but the sand in hs butt crack all day, surrounded by corrupt politicians and police and religious leaders, who's main hobbys include and are basically limited to doing anything to survive another day?
Most whiny bleeding heart Americans have a real rude awakening on the horizon and if you don't prepare for the future, you're going to be one of the ones in debtors prison or completely dependent on the Government for life support.
Every day there are attemtps made to make me feel bad as a person. They try to make me feel bad for being Human, they try to make me feel bad for being white, they try to make me feel bad for being a male, they try to make me feel bad for being American, they try to make me feel bad for being a smoker.... blah, blah, blah.....
Well..... THEY can go FUCK themselves.
and Chris.... this quote is beautiful
Quote:.
it's not wrong because it's a female, it's wrong because she's a sentient creature
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Jack, I enjoy discussing ideas with those who aren't afraid to have opinions even if those opinions are different than mine soooo... You said,
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Don't even pretend to know the statistics and tell me that women die more often there than men do. I wouldn't believe any numbers you gave me, and you shouldn't believe any numbers somebody tells you either.
You've set the parameters of allowing me no statistics. Brutal! No science, only opinion allowed. Well, at least I don't have to do any research.
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this woman did not die because she was a woman. She died because she broke the backwards laws or rules or whatever ...in a shitty corner of the globe.
You are right that she died because she was perceived as having broke the rules of her society. Unfortunately, in her case,those perceived rules were applied to her because she was a woman so Dua Khalil did die because she was a woman.
Now, I'm going to do something that is risky because you aren't here to correct me. I'm going to restate your argument and I hope I get it right. Your argument appears to be that because the world is getting "tougher," you need to prepare yourself for "living on next to nothing" and you don't have the energy to worry about what happens to
Quote:. (I couldn't help but notice your similarity to Jayne there.
these people, they mean nothing to me
)You have a point, you can't worry about everybody and you can't fix all the world's ills. And I'm sorry that people try and make you feel like you are a bad person simply because you are white, male, and American. They are behaving no better than a person who tries to make someone feel bad because they are black, female, and from a ghetto. However, Whedon's point was just that---people shouldn't be made to feel bad, be subject to violence, or to special rules simply because they are something--in Dua Khalil's case because she was a woman.
Dua Khalil's death is not wrong because she is a woman but it happened because she was a woman. Whedon does not diminish the horror of any man's death. He simply agrees with you that people shouldn't be made to feel bad (or worse!) because of something they are born being. He asks us all to examine ourselves as to how we are contributing to making women feel bad. Perhaps the larger question, that he didn't ask, would be what are we doing to make anyone feel bad.
So, with that in mind, I hope I don't offend you by pointing out that my pretty little head is attached to the body of a martial artist and my pretty little head has kept afloat a small school for over 5 years. I, and Whedon, won't ask you to sacrifice huge amounts of money or time. I, and I think Whedon, would just like you to give women the respect that you would like to have given you.
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To add one point to Redhead's beautiful post...
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Originally posted by redhead:
I, and I think Whedon, would just like you to give women the respect that you would like to have given you.
And if you are already doing it... no reason to feel defensive. Obviously, you are not the target audience, so just keep on doing the right thing and be proud of that.
Can women call for equality without men being offended and saying they have to apologize for having a penis? Can people who have nothing to feel bad about just... not consider themselves attacked? I'm all open for being told what specific language should be changed to make that easier, but I am not really open to pretending that women, globally, aren't still in a much worse position than men are, for whatever reason.
In that context:
WHERE THE HELL were the women who knew Dua Khalil? Mother, sisters, aunts, nieces, friends?
Where they watching and cheering her death? Were they locked up somewhere, unable to help? Did they know? They must have known!
I can't imagine that a bunch of women as large as that bunch of men, rushing to help her would not have caused a disturbance big enough to maybe save her life.
Women failed her just as much as men did.
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For the first time in a long time, I am proud to be alive. To be a part of the human race.
This post, voicing so loudly and so clearly, of a subject that has been haunting me for as long as I have understood violence against our fellow creatures and the implications of such a thing, has made me realize that not all people are so hopelessly apathetic.
Sometimes we all get lost in our own lives. It's human. It's what makes us real. And it's okay, as long as you come back to the big picture and decide to be a part of it. Too many people don't come back however, and some people even lose themselves to a new kind of selfishness.
I have spent years being bitterly angry with men for everything they have taken from women. But then I realized, they didn't take anything from us. We still have every advantage and every hope that we had from the very beginning... It's just never been shown to us. We are just beginning to realize our true worth and potential.
In a hypocritical world filled with both men and women who have skewed ideas of what it is to be feminine we have to step up and define female ourselves. In the process, we have to look at violence against women, against anyone in fact, and SAY that is NOT okay! This is NOT how things are supposed to be.
In a perfect world, people would be kind, considerate, and no one would need to die for a cause, but we don't live in a perfect world. Not even close. But by taking the initiative, by taking little baby steps-- stopping an act of violence, speaking out against something that is wrong, writing a letter (thank you Joss)-- we are moving towards a better world.
Joss, you are amazing. I see in you a true humanitarian and someone who could change the world with a word (in this case a blog/post thing). I thank you for sharing and putting into words what I have only begun to question. I am profoundly touched by your empathy and I hope more than one person has truly heard what you have to say. Keep saying what you're saying and doing what you're doing.
and you are correct. The sky is not evil. It's beautiful.
Cassie...
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Wish this could somehow be (wo)mandatory reading for everyone. 
Kain
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I'll fess up and say that I didn't read every single post in this thread (or the even longer one at Wheadonesque), so my sincere apologies if someone else has made this point.
Women, in general, are physically smaller and weaker than men. That's just the way things are, not a lot we can do about that.
However, women are also (in many cases) weaker emotionally and psychologically than men, making them more likely to be victimized (most often, by a man or men). I think this is the result of acculturation and can be changed.
I'm a perfect example...I grew up in a house with an uber-male, ex-Navy, ex-Police Officer dad. I was trained to respect (or more accurately, be in fear of) authority figures. (And still, in 2007, most authority figures are men.) I was raised to be deferential to men and authority figures, and to do what I was told.
There was also an underlying assumption (never even questioned) that women didn't need to learn how to protect themselves, because that's a man's job. It's a husband's/father's/boyfriend's job to protect you. (Unless, of course, he was the one beating you up.)
This kind of upbringing made me ripe for victimisation, and that's exactly what happened. I was sexually harassed by a supervisor at work (eventually losing my job and nearly everything else as a result of it) and on one occasion I was date-raped by a man I had started seeing.
At the time, I simply didn't have the mindset that would have allowed me to physically fight back. Even in this day and age, women are told to not fight back against an attacker, they're told to try to verbally de-escalate the situation or run away. Worst of all, women are told not to carry a gun because a perp will just "take it away from you."
Well, ladies and gentlemen, whomever said that needs to be drug out back and shot. The fact is that a woman who behaves passively is 2.5 times as likely to end up being seriously injured as a woman who has a gun. (John Lott, "More Guns, Less Crime", great interview about the book at http://www.reason.com/news/show/27562.html)
Women are victims because we allow ourselves to be victimized.
The good thing about being assaulted and surviving is that you have the chance to hit rock bottom and then rebuild your life from scratch. In my second go-round, I decided I would no longer be a victim. I did a lot of self-improvement work and upped my self-esteem. A boyfriend took me shooting for the first time, and I got over my fear of guns. I didn't buy a gun at the time, but I finally got my mind right--I AM A WORTHY HUMAN BEING and I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF.
Then there was Virginia Tech. A woman-hating sociopath was able to fire 170 rounds, unopposed, into dozens of sitting-duck victims, starting with his ex-girlfriend. Most were killed, slaughterhouse-style, with single shots to the head. That was the tipping point for me...when I realized that not one of those women defended herself--and for the most part, the men around them didn't either. And they all died.
So last month I took the NRA Basic Pistol class that would allow me to qualify to carry a concealed weapon in my state. I bought a gun, I went to the range, and I learned how to use it.
Now I have something in common with Joss' strong women--I AM ARMED. Has anyone else noticed that? One of the reasons Joss' women can kick ass is that they have weaponry--and it's acting as a Great Equalizer. In addition to her hand combat skills, little Buffy has a trunk full of weapons and she knows how to use them. Tiny waif-like River can take out an Alliance soldier with one shot. Zoe, is, of course, a soldier. Even Inara packs exploding firewords disguised as incense.
Guns are indeed the great equalizer. Learning how to use a gun has changed my life. I now take complete responsibility for my own life and my own safety. I have the tools, mindset, and now, I believe, the duty to defend myself and my loved ones.
I urge every woman reading this to sign up for the next basic pistol class in your town. Then get a g
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