Joss Post at Whedonesque
POSTED BY: FireflyPassenger
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 08:49
VIEWED: 40107
PAGE 5 of 14
Quandom have you forgotten the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, Chastity Belts? Christianity, for all of the good it has done, has more blood on its hands than any other religion in history. I truly hope that I am missing your sarcasm here. Islam on the other hand, is responsible in large part for medicine, engineering, mathematics, and the bulk of Greek and Roman Writings, which can hardly be considered nothing other than art.
As to the content of Joss' post - Though I doubt it is the root cause of gender inequality "Womb Envy" does seem to be a logical argument. Men tend to be physically stronger than women, and therefore feel they should be dominant. They also wish to propogate, but know that to pass on their genes they require a woman and that they came from a woman. This confuses them, because it gives women power over them, even though they are physically stronger. Thus, men subjugate the women to maintain this dominance the only way they know how, leading to inequality. After centuries of this dynamic, women have developed a case of stockholm syndrome, identifying with their subjugators' "Right" to dominate them. Now I must say that I am a man, and do not advocate dominance by women just as i do not advocate dominance by men. We're just two halves that make a whole baby and carry on the species. Also, I have no real Sociology training and therefore my ramblings are based entirely on speculation and possibly the "truthiness" of my arguments, which is dangerous in and of its self. But know that I am simply commenting on the topic, and not trying to insult anyone or force anyone to my way of thinking.
As to those who would attack Joss for "Just waking up" to the problems in the world ((Have they ever seen his shows?)) - Better Early than late, but better late than never. I think that is the main thrust of Joss' argument. Should we fight over when someone "Saw the Light" and decided to do something to change the injustices or should we celebrate that they've made the decision and help them in their actions?
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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Firstly, i commend joss on his position and how he chose to bring this issue to the minds of so many. I would not expect anything less.
Secondly, this is a very complex issue and like most problems that we all face, their is never a single solution, however their is always determination. the determination of a truly inspired few to make the necessary changes that shape our world. What am i saying? simply this. the negative treatment of women has always been a part of all civilizations since the foundation of the earth. particularly civilizations that have a patriachical structure. no one can understand why women have always been seen as inferior but what we can determine is that the fault lies with mankind as a whole (sorry to disappoint those of you who blame christianity, islam, or religion as a whole for all the problems of the world, particularly those of you who have never read any of the sacred texts and apply your biased interpretation to suit your own needs). This detestable incident that happened to Dua was not because of the religion those people belonged to, it was because they are human. you see, as humans we have always had an unknown and innate reason to dislike outsiders. whether it be women, blacks, whites, jews, muslims, christians, e.t.c.
But how do we do it? we use mediums (this is where religion always comes in it to take the blame). our once infallible religions become a medium (a tool,) used by fallible human beings to propagate their message (remember also that the school sytem was being used in the early 1900's to teach young white children that they were superior to blacks). Anyway as those who have read and understood sacred texts will tell you, not one of them tells you to hate women, jews, e.t.c. we as humans twist and interpret these texts to suit our needs and it is truly sad that so many have bought into false ideas and behaviors and not known why nor thought to seek out the truth.
What do we do? For there to be any change, we as humans need to fight and defeat that innate compulsion in us to be better than. you all know what i mean, you feel that compulsion everyday, you take pride in it. "at least i'm better off than..." "i should be better than..." this kind of unhealthy competition if you look closely is the reason for the hate that people have toward each other. this also may be a simplification of the issue, but it is what i am able to put forth.
It is truly regrettable what happened to Dua. May her soul rest in Peace.
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Firstly, i commend joss on his position and how he chose to bring this issue to the minds of so many. I would not expect anything less.
Secondly, this is a very complex issue and like most problems that we all face, there is never a single solution, however there is always determination. the determination of a truly inspired few to make the necessary changes that shape our world. What am i saying? simply this. the negative treatment of women has always been a part of all civilizations since the foundation of the earth. particularly civilizations that have a patriachical structure. no one can understand why women have always been seen as inferior but what we can determine is that the fault lies with mankind as a whole (sorry to disappoint those of you who blame christianity, islam, or religion as a whole for all the problems of the world, particularly those of you who have never read any of the sacred texts and apply your biased interpretation to suit your own needs). This detestable incident that happened to Dua was not because of the religion those people belonged to, it was because they are human. you see, as humans we have always had an unknown and innate reason to dislike outsiders. whether it be women, blacks, whites, jews, muslims, christians, e.t.c.
But how do we do it? we use mediums (this is where religion always comes in it to take the blame). our once infallible religions become a medium (a tool,) used by fallible human beings to propagate their message (remember also that the school sytem was being used in the early 1900's to teach young white children that they were superior to blacks). Anyway as those who have read and understood sacred texts will tell you, not one of them tells you to hate women, jews, e.t.c. we as humans twist and interpret these texts to suit our needs and it is truly sad that so many have bought into false ideas and behaviors and not known why nor thought to seek out the truth.
What do we do? For there to be any change, we as humans need to fight and defeat that innate compulsion in us to be better than. you all know what i mean, you feel that compulsion everyday, you take pride in it. "at least i'm better off than..." "i should be better than..." this kind of unhealthy competition if you look closely is the reason for the hate that people have toward each other. this also may be a simplification of the issue, but it is what i am able to put forth.
It is truly regrettable what happened to Dua. May her soul rest in Peace.
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oops. sorry about the double post.
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Yeah Chastity belts...Weren't they a Christian thing? Another thought Don't members of the KKK and the IRA and the Sicilian Mafia regard themselves as Christian? do they represent the rest of us Christians any more than radical violent Muslims represent Everyone practising Islam?
rose and boris
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Quote:
Originally posted by quandom:
The problem is with Islamic civilization, not men. The treatment of this unfortunate woman would have been unthinkable one thousand years ago in Christian Europe - it was and is typical of Arab and the successor Turkish empires' culture. The Men of the West owe no apologies, but I hope we can all agree that whatever contributions it has made to the arts, the Muslim world is morally degenerate. In the coming clash of civilizations, I require from Whedon and every man living - which side are you on? I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Someone is a bigot, but I can't decide if you hate Islam or the Middle East.
There exist many Islamic countries AND people that don't demonstrate this sort of behavior. "Honor killings" aren't part of the Koran. A lot of Christian sects treat women like crap as well. Possibly not as violently, but equally bad. Does the "rule of thumb" ring a bell for you? For a reference, written by a woman who believes the nonsense, see "Lies Women Believe: And the Truth that Sets them Free" at http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Women-Believe-Truth-that/dp/0802472966/ref=
sr_1_1/002-7662270-7283233?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180052493&sr=1-1. My favorite lie that I believe is "I have rights".
ANY group that propagates sanctioned inequality and injustice is morally degenerate to some degree. Am I including America? Yes. I'm also including Israel/Palestine, and some tenets of Buddhism (and I love the Buddhism, but male monks are treated far better than female monks (when the exist) which is hilarious because in traditional southeast asian society women commanded far more power and respect than men).
And if you think for a second that the problem doesn't lie with men at all, then I challenge you to dress up as a female and walk down a street at night. You might be surprised at what happens and who the shady characters are.
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Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.
~Forsaken Forever
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Quote:
ANY group that propagates sanctioned inequality and injustice is morally degenerate to some degree. Am I including America? Yes. I'm also including Israel/Palestine, and some tenets of Buddhism (and I love the Buddhism, but male monks are treated far better than female monks (when the exist) which is hilarious because in traditional southeast asian society women commanded far more power and respect than men).
And if you think for a second that the problem doesn't lie with men at all, then I challenge you to dress up as a female and walk down a street at night. You might be surprised at what happens and who the shady characters are.
Sorry for picking on you Sass, cause I like ya, but you're the last one to write on this thread and I don't have the attention span right now to go back to the beginning of this huge post. But.....
1) When you find a society that doesn't propogate sanctioned inequality and injustice, let me know, and I'll buy you a house there.
2) Though I won't argue the bigotry remark, to say that this is a male problem is just as sexist as what quandom said is racist, so I fail to see the fundamental difference in yours and quandom's seperate, but eerily similar ways of thinking here.
________________________________________________
And to everyone else:
As for Joss's problem with Elisha saying "I'm Sorry" in "Captivity", and the fact that this is a female thing as opposed to a torture thing, I call bullshit. Anybody who is tortured says "I'm Sorry" at one point or another. They even begin to believe that maybe something they've done, perhaps all of the bad things that us evil little humans do in life, has somehow made them diserve the torture they're going through and their own guilt for things completely unrelated to the current torture surfaces. Watch "Resevior Dogs" and tell me if the look in the cops eyes wasn't sorry all over when Mr. Blonde was slashing his face and cutting off his ear. Only difference is he had tape on his mouth and couldn't even scream, let alone say "I'm sorry".
If there should be any problem with this movie, I would think it's the fact that anybody would even go to see it in the first place. Just because nobody really died in the making of it doesn't mean that the children and 20 somethings aren't really watching anything more than a fucking snuff flick. I want to know why the two are any different? Guys go and watch this filth and get hardons because they're watching Elisha looking all sexy and then she gets tortured for an hour and (without having seen it) presumably killed. Shouldn't the fact that they know a large enough of us want to watch this shit that they'll make it but they pass on "Serenity II" be the real problem and topic of discussion here?
This post of Joss' was nothing more than another reason why he is as popular today with young women as Oprah is with their mothers. That's just Joss appealing to his prime demographic. "I'M SORRY", but I'm not going to feel like an asshole for having a penis. I nearly had the life beat out of me by 4 guys and took a knife in the back standing up for a girl I only met one time prior. That was torture and the worst part about it is that I kinda did feel sorry for trying to help afterwards. The saddest thing is that I don't think I'd ever do it again, should a similar situation arise....
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And to everyone else:....
I couldn't have said it better. We might be the minority here, but it's better than not agreeing with anyone. I summed up my feelings in my prior post.
Not sure the circumstances about your getting attacked, but I'm really sorry to hear that. Hopefully there weren't any long term problems besides the memories. I unfortunately have a colleague who was in a similar situation.
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Can I have a houseboat instead of a house?
And yes, I realize it's not completely a "man thing". I'm currently in a man-bashing mood though and so that's the irrational train my thoughts are taking for the moment, which probably directly relates to finding out another person I know has been sexually assaulted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.
~Forsaken Forever
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I've always wondered, if women really are as strong as men, why have they been able to be subjected to men in nearly every reach of the known world?
Here's what I've seen, in everything ranging from specicies to races to religions. Someone/thing is going to hate you and/or try to prevent you from prospering at some point. It just happens. Maybe it's not "fair" in the sense of the word that we've been taught, but anything worthy of surviving and being at the top carved it's own way into the equation, not only adapting to it's enviornment, but forcing it's enviornment to adapt to it.
What Joss is writting about reminds me slightly of "White Guilt". Convincing any group, ethnic, sexual, or otherwise that they're entitled to something is not empowering them, it's taking power away.
[IMG]
Ride down from Asgard to the battlefield,
Bringer of the valiant dead who died but never yielded,
Carry we who die in battle over land and sea,
Across the rainbow bridge to Valhalla,
Odin's waiting for me.
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