The Cure is Compassion
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Sunday, May 27, 2007 22:39
VIEWED: 4923
PAGE 4 of 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The most compassionate thing we can do is get the hell out of somewhere nobody wants us and let Iraq solve Iraqs problems - every minute of our meddling just prolongs the bloodshed by that very much and whatever puppet regime we prop up is gonna blowback on us again and start this whole goddamn idiotic cycle all over again.
Sometimes compassion is having the decency to leave well the hell enough ALONE.
ya know this is kind of an interesting take on "compassion". Let’s call it the: screw-you-guy's-i'm-going-home-call-me-who-ever's-the-last-man-standing approach.
Don’t get me wrong that was basically are response to Vietnam (hay all you Hmong and montinards (SP) just try and cover ya heads when thay come for ya….if that don’t work try just sort of going limp)>
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Well, bear in mind that I was one of the ones saying we shouldn't do it, and that chaos would ensue.
Suppose I charged into your house and held you at gunpoint in order to change your diet to a more healthy one for you, to "help" you ?
You'd kinda resent that a lil bit, wouldn't you ?
You can NOT ram "Freedom" down someones throat on the barrel of a gun, you just can't do it, they don't want it, they won't keep it, and they'll resent you for smashing up their country in the process.
If the Iraqis wanted Saddam out bad enough, if enough of them wanted him gone - he'd have been gone, thus not enough of them had the desire or will to effectively eliminate him and his regime, it doesn't mean he was liked, it means they accepted him in light of whatever alternatives.
Look at the Shah, for example.. enough Iranians wanted him gone and were willing to take him and SAVAK on, and they kicked his ass right on out and replaced him with Khomeni, doesn't mean they all liked him neither, just preferred him to the available alternatives.
If *enough* people want you gone, your gone, one way or another, and no military or security is gonna prevent it when they are simultaneously overwhelmed and infiltrated by those who'd like to see the end of you - but it requires folk to be willing to do it, and a judgement on whether or not the amount of violence and bloodshed likely to result is worth being rid of them, and also whether whatever alternative is any better.
And the very worst idiocy is to go in and throw someone like that out without one single thought to what you plan to replace them with, chaos WILL ensure, civil war is guaranteed.
Iraqs problems were for Iraq to solve, not us, and every moment we are there just prolongs the bloodshed, and yes, there WILL be a lot of bloodshed, and yes, there's no denying our part in causing much of it, but to prolong it and remain unwanted is just salt in an infected wound, especially with our rapacious corporations fighting over their oil.
Whether it happens now or later, we're still responsible, and if we prop up some US-Friendly goon like Saddam or the Shah, or even Osama (who we created, more or less) it'll boomerang on us like it ALWAYS does and there will be another civil war when the Iraqis muster enough force to throw that one out, or they turn on us.
Why feed the cycle ? why piss on a country we've already wounded bad enough ?
Out, Now.
It's truly the kindest solution.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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FremD
I agree. I thought Iraq was a phony war for unclean reasons. The US should never have attacked. But having attacked, the US should have had plans for rebuilding and security. Having failed that there is nothing more that can be done. The US can't fix what it broke. If left alone the Iraqis will be able to figure it out, given time.
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Well, Rue, the situation in Iraq currently reminds me of an old tale, which I've been unable to find reposted, about a man with a wobbly table, who starts taking a file to the legs... until he eventually winds up with a wobbly stool... then a wobbly cutting board, and in the end, naught but a handful of sawdust - a parable of sorts about now sometimes not pickin at something is a wiser idea than incompetent attempts to fix it.
My own variation of that, is that a delicate situation is a lot like trying to hold onto a wet egg.. cup it gently, firmly, and there's no problem...
But you start to squeeze, and that egg gets mighty slippery, and the harder you squeeze, the slipperier it gets, and you keep going with that, and *POIT*, now what do you have ?
And right now we're squeezing harder and harder, with obviously predictable results, for those of us who live in the real world, unlike a certain poster who's beginning to strike me as deluded, deranged and so out of contact with reality that I'm not even gonna bother busting his chops no more.
A good example of well-meaning but idiotic foreign policy is sending food to south africa when they keep murdering the only people willing to run farms down there - stop sending it and either they'll learn REAL fast some tolerance, or they'll starve till they do.
A major problem with our foreign policy is it's shortsightedness, politicians want results, and want results they can hold up and play on while they're still in office, and thus go for the quick fix even when it will without a doubt cause greater problems down the road, and conversely, this administration wants to keep that war going as a bulwark against criticism, impeachment, and prosecution till they can get safely out of office and prolly out of the country with their ill-gotten gains.
You really think Cheney for example, isn't gonna run his ass to Dubai after he's done as veep ?
Just some random thoughts on the matter.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I thought Iraq was a phony war for unclean reasons. The US should never have attacked. But having attacked, the US should have had plans for rebuilding and security. Having failed that there is nothing more that can be done. The US can't fix what it broke. If left alone the Iraqis will be able to figure it out, given time.
Hey Rue,
Just a thought: a country where a violent, insane dictator is routinely killing his own people on the slightest pretext is pretty broken.
How can you break something that was already so broken it was devouring itself?
I can't help thinking this whole "you broke it you buy it" meme is part of our nation's pathological control fantasy.
Seems to me that blaming ourselves for what's going on in Iraq is not unlike an incompetent doctor blaming himself for a patient's cancer that's already metastasized throughout the body. Yes, the doctor is incompetent, but this patient was beyond the care of even the best doctor in the world.
But we like the idea that the fate of the Iraqi people rests in our hands. We like to imagine we mighty Americans wield that kind of raw power in the world. The alternative--accepting our real helplessness, our powerlessness to change certain things in our world--seems tragically out of reach.
What our country has forgotten how to do, maybe since Lincoln--the only sane option left when someone we care about has a terminal illness--is to grieve. We never grieved the atom bomb and we never grieved Dresden. We never grieved for Vietnam, and we're not about to grieve for Iraq.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hi HKC,
"But we like the idea that the fate of the Iraqi people rests in our hands."
I think to some extent the US helped create the mess that was Hussein, and for sure opened Pandora's box with the attack.
IF Iraq wasn't so intrinsically factional, IF the culture didn't create centuries-long vendettas, IF the country had had a longer unified history ... and probably many IFs I haven't thought about - the US could have done exactly the same thing and Iraq would have stumbled but not gone into a power dive. So I agree with you on that. There are a lot of things that rest on the Iraqis themselves.
But the administration had warnings about what could happen and went ahead anyway. And now things have gone SO wrong Iraqis are thinking Hussein was the good old days. The US launched that scenario.
I think 'reponsibility' probably needs some apportionment, so that if there are lessons to be learned the proper parties know clearly what their role was, what they did wrong, and adjust accordingly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
(the compassion that made so many people, liberal and conservative alike, support the invasion of Iraq in the first place)
HKCavalier
I hate to admit I reluctantly supported Bush's decision to go to Iraq; but it was not based on compassion; it was solely on the grounds that he claimed (via methods he said would damage national security to reveal) that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. I regret having trusted George W. on this matter.
I believe the best solution is to impeach Bush; have the UN declare the US must immediately turn over control to UN command and control; and then to handle an "as orderly as possible" withdrawal. Bush should then be tried for crimes against humanity in international court. Knowing this isn't going to happen, I send the periodic notes to my congress people saying... "It's time to start the stand down."
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Quote:You have my respect for being able to admit an error in judgement; that where real learning begins.
Originally posted by leadb:
I hate to admit I reluctantly supported Bush's decision to go to Iraq; but it was not based on compassion; it was solely on the grounds that he claimed (via methods he said would damage national security to reveal) that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
If more of us were only as bold...Chrisisall
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