pretentious, chest-pounding, protecting the damsel-in-distress, woman-protecting, hero of Canton speeches

POSTED BY: leadb
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 22:34
VIEWED: 21233
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KHYRON

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:24 PM

Oddsboskins,

Sorry, I thought you were accusing me of wanting to suppress freedom of expression, that's why I got sarcastic.

The hypocrisy I was talking about is a result of political correctness gone too far, and it gets me a little worked up. My issue isn't River's opinion, which I couldn't care about less and doesn't bother me, it's the dichotomy in people's reactions to such confrontational opinions. When River says that stuff, she does so as someone from a "previously oppressed background" (in this case, women) and people respond by being slightly bemused and try to reason with her (good reaction, I'm absolutely fine with it and glad people react in such a sensible way), but would it be a male poster expressing his hatred for women, we all know what would happen. Apart from the plethora of personal attacks against the poster, we'd have a ton of pretentious, chest-pounding, protecting the damsel-in-distress, woman-protecting, hero of Canton speeches.

Actually, River should get more worked up about people's reactions to her posts in this thread than anything else.

River,

Don't you realise people here are being patronising towards you? You come with a confrontational opinion and most of them go "There there, not all men are as bad as they seem, it's okay". Instead of men, you should be attacking everybody here who responds to your posts politely (since you hate patronising behaviour so much).

AgentRouka,

Kudos to your reactions to River's posts. Would those sort of logical, sensible and reasoned responses be the norm when sexism goes the other way I wouldn't be having this little diatribe.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

ODDSBODSKINS

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:10 PM

Well, perhaps so, but short of creating an alternate username, I'm not sure how we can test the theory.

Maybe we're patronising her, Hidunno, personally, she can think it all she likes, I got no objection to that, not inclined to much like her personally as a result of those opinions, but that's my business, not the boards.

I'd take the same point of view if it were a bloke posting, although I suspect that wouldn't make me terribly popular.

Yes I agree, sorry, forgot to say that. Such hypocrisy is deeply unpleasant, I'm just not prepared to latch on and have a go at someone just to make sure we react to everyone the same

Our criminal institutions are full of little creeps like you who do wrong things.
Many of them were driven to these things by a horrible force called Music.

KHYRON

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
Yes I agree, sorry, forgot to say that. Such hypocrisy is deeply unpleasant, I'm just not prepared to latch on and have a go at someone just to make sure we react to everyone the same

I'm not either, I'd rather we respond to sexist statements (or any form of bigotry) as AgentRouka and co. are doing in this thread (i.e. calmly pointing out the illogical and senseless aspects of that person's arguments - regardless of the backgrounds of the person spewing the vitriol and the objects of their hate), instead of abusing that person verbally and then thumping one's own chest.

Anyway, it didn't happen in this thread, I just wanted to make people ponder that inconsistency for a bit.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

CONSTANCE

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:06 PM

This is such a shiny thread.. quite fun to read. I like men and everybody really to be nice and holding doors and what not. If a door holding man makes some idiotic comment while holding the door, he gets one back.. only a smart one
I claim the right to be treated with respect and appreciate the "chivalry" or whatever one wants to call it, without having to worry about the thought behind. When and if that thought becomes apparent I can hold my own.

I do however hate men that insists on buying drinks (men I dont know) and when their offer is declined gets pissed off because I suspect a not so chivalrous motive. And I dont need to be protected in discussions or arguments either. I will ask for help when I need it thank you very much.Pre emptive protectiveness from guys are well ment Im sure but very annoying.

Constance

SAFEAT2ND

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:29 PM

I agree Constance, this IS a good discussion.

And I also agree with you that there are guys that use what they think of a chivalry to their own ends. Hopefully those guys are few and far between.

In the truest sense, chivalry is a politeness, a courtesy to others. At least that's the way I look at it and from the sounds of it a lot of others in this discussion do as well.

It helps to restore some of my faith in humanity (not completely, mind you, but it helps none the less). There are actually good people out there.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

CONSTANCE

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:

And I also agree with you that there are guys that use what they think of a chivalry to their own ends. Hopefully those guys are few and far between.

In the truest sense, chivalry is a politeness, a courtesy to others. At least that's the way I look at it and from the sounds of it a lot of others in this discussion do as well.

It helps to restore some of my faith in humanity (not completely, mind you, but it helps none the less). There are actually good people out there.

_______________________________________________________________

not as few and as far between as I would like, but Im to lazy to go around and thinking the worst about folk. Im all for everybody start behaving... manners and politness and all that. Makes everything a whole lot easier. Not that every polite person nessesarily is a good person, but only a bad person that its easier to be around.. Even if the niceness is fake, its better than outright rudeness and people pulling eachother down...

This ofcourse applies to both sexes.

What I have always found a bit patronizing is the idea that hitting a woman is so much worse than hitting a man. That means that I cant hit men that think so, cause they will just stand there.. "I dont hit women so.. nanananana". I am aware that its not meant this way, but it sure as hell feels that way.. cant we just agree that hitting people, men or women, should be reserved for very special occations...?

Constance

SHIMAUMA

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:55 PM

Dang I got in on this late but I think you made a brilliantly simple observation Casual

Quote:
I think there are differences between men and women that go beyond sexual apparatus.

*ducks for cover*

Men and women are different, physically and mentally, it's why we complement each other so well. It's those who try to twist and warp this concept that usually cause most of the problems. I could go in depth more, but I'm on my lunch hour...and as much as I'd love to be a homemaker my leftarded blue state taxes us beyond a one income ability. Thanks to feminazi organizations like *NOW* we're forced into the drudgery of the office and made to send our kids into impersonalized substandard care.

You open those doors and lift those packages for me all you want. Guys like that are awesome!

Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. ~ Psalm 144:1

Jayne Cobb: Shepherd Book once said to me, "If you can't do something smart, do something RIGHT."

CAUSAL

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If a guy opens a door for me, unless I know him I don't pass through it. I just stare at him as the patronizing jack-ass that he is until he shrugs and goes through the door himself. I ignore guys who offer me special favors with the automatic assumption that I need it; I see guys like this as complete idiots. I hate the sort of guy that was raised to patronize women with the assumption that she is weak and needs him.

Something for you to consider: I actually open the door for everybody--male or female. I figure that it is just a courteous thing to do, and a very easy way to do something nice for someone. It's my understanding that most men who open doors for women do so as a sign of respect--just the opposite of the patronizing attitude you described. They are trying to do something nice not because the woman can't do it for herself, but as a way of giving her honor. It's like taking one's hat off when the flag goes by--it's done not because the flag needs you to or expects you to or even wants you to, but because one wishes to show honor and respect to the flag. Perhaps the men who open the door are saying, "I value you as a person" instead of "You can't do this yourself."

I was once given the advice that if a woman objected to a door being opened for her, I ought to reply, "I didn't open the door because you're a woman; I did it because I'm a gentleman." I don't think I would actually do that, because it might come off as confrontational, but the point of the phrase is that door-opening has more to do with the opener that with the opened-for. Gentlemen respect and value women and one way of expressing that is opening doors.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:00 PM

OK, so... I'm a woman who went through a phase of severe annoyance with the door thing. It is rather silly, the lengths some men will go through to hold a damned door, completely messing up the traffic flow so they can play the proper role.

These days, I tend to go with it, but make a point of grabbing a door knob and standing aside when it's convenient for me to do so, returning the favor. This has confused some of the men I work with, but it sent them the message I wanted without being an attack on their habits.

It's even a bit of a joke - one of my co-workers, an older fella from the South, had been at peace with me re the door thing. Then he saw me in a dance concert, doing a duet that was rather... passionate (hey - in an *artsy* way! nothing X-rated!) and suddenly he was all about running ahead to open doors for me. As if I had been revealed as a feminine sexual object and required different treatment. Just silly.

How'd I deal with it? Made fun of him. He got over it, we're still friends, and the door opening is back to being about traffic flow.

Really, River, there's few situations that a sense of humor won't help. Make fun of the guys, make fun of yourself. You'd be surprised how much it helps. They're just as human as we are.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

COZEN

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 7:17 PM

Context is so important. I hope that the following makes sense to most of y'all.

Long ago, in a university's quadrangle far away, I once took a few quick steps in order to get ahead of a blind person -- with doggie -- in order to open a door. Imagine the scenario: healthy me, and a sight-challenged person about to approach an obstacle. Well, even as I was opening the door, sight-challenged (let's face facts: blind) person initiated a rant, the jist of which was how I was ignorantly confusing the dog by my quick action. The theme of her discourse was, "don't do it again". The well trained dog being the "x" factor that I didn't suss at the time, kinda like the way in which historically established male-female relationships, despite the vast amount of detail, isn't being accepted at face value in this thread.

All I'm saying is that when we are opening doorsT for other peeps, our intentions can be no more than a kindness to others. This applies regardless of gender. I, for one, willingly open doors for anyone, regardless of gender, with no expectation of getting laid. (And I'll thank those with the extra Y chomosome to ignore me completely in that [/] way eh?)

The point is: why can't we just be kind to anyone? The time for 'sexual congress' is defined by a wide array of parameters, is it not? Such that it has more to do with opening an actual door, or stopping to help with a flat tire or somesuch.

Again with context: if a male opens a door for RiveR, can't she just be happy enough to walk through that door and get on with her life, without worrying about his intents at 'congress'? After all, by the time she takes the elevator to whatever floor that is different from his destination, who cares?

If I were a woman, a cynical woman to boot, I'd be happy to make use of the little advantages those naive chauvinistic males make for me. Why worry?

***
Opening the doors of awareness is what this is all about, right?

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