Joss Post at Whedonesque

POSTED BY: FireflyPassenger
UPDATED: Monday, June 11, 2007 08:49
VIEWED: 40107
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CHINDI

Monday, May 21, 2007 10:33 PM

I agree. This is why Joss and his writings are so compelling; and why he attracts such intelligent and thoughtful (as in thinking) fans..

It is a profoundly disturbing story, event and situation. It is made all the more so, as there seems to be this resurgence against women world wide... thinking about the issue and discussing it is a good start! Shine that bright light into that dark corner... then as Joss asks, let us all try to take the NEXT step to action.

I too am proud to be a part of this community. And this is why Joss and all the 'Coats are so important to me personally.

Thank you for the discussion.

Chindi

MAZAEN

Monday, May 21, 2007 10:43 PM

Quote:
We, as men, should not knock women down to unrealistic them up to unrealistic heights. We should walk beside them, sharing their nobility and strength, combining it with ours, so that we both might stand tall and truly free.

Did you make that up? That is such a thought provoking and articulate quote.

I agree that the truly greatest men in the world are those men that are able to use their strengths to respect women and children. These men seem to benefit from the nobility and quiet strength that these women are allowed to show. These women go on to raise great sons like Joss.

ANGELDOVE

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 6:06 AM

I just found this an interesting connection between what Joss posted, and a quote from Early in Objects In Space:

Joss’ post on whedonesque:

Quote:
The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true.

Quote by Early from OIS

Quote:
Man is stronger by far than woman.
But only woman can create a child.
That seem right to you?

And lastly, I know someone already posted the quote

Quote:
If nothing we do matters, than the only thing that matters is what we do.

- as an example of taking the time, whatever time, no matter how little, to do something, anything that can create a positive change in this world. I’d like to add another:

A quote from Joss’ response to sansmercy:

Quote:
One of the things that keeps people from doing anything constructive is the overwhelming feeling that it simply isn't enough. And the withering disdain of people like Sansmercy has a similar effect. It freezes people, makes speaking out or lifting a finger awkward and problematic...whenever a person decides to do something useful -- no matter how late or how little -- that's something useful.

Quote:
Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.

I believe we are the champions, and we are being called upon to 'show the world what it can be' (ok, yeah, sounds a little corny, so Queen like; couldn’t figure out another way to say it.)

And what I found truly amazing was those few comments on the site stating that Joss is just now ‘waking up to the problems in the world’ - have ya seen his shows, aside from the above quotes? seriously…you're on whedonesque, and you can’t figure out his shows are about girl power, really?

Nice to know I don’t have to worry about such ignorance (sorry was that harsh?) from my wonderful friends here.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

JWHEDONADDICT

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:03 AM

Angeldove: That's actually 2 of my favorite quotes not only from ANGEL, but the entire Jossverse.

The first one, especially, is one I use damn near every day of my life...or should. I suffer from severe depression and the worst days are usually brought on by money or family issues, the feeling that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

I've been so wrapped up in my own family issues lately that I barely am able to digest what's going on in the world even though I actually watch the news almost everyday. Thanks to Joss, I realize how little my problems really are in comparison. I hope there's something I can do to help even though I'm kinda broke.

**************************************
"Drew isn't that talented. He just gets away with stuff because he's cute."--David Fury on Drew Goddard
"Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing."--Angel
"In Joss We Trust."

CERES

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:14 AM

I was flicking through ‘Are Women Human?’ which looked like a really interesting book on this subject although I haven’t had time to read it properly yet. Here’s the summary – ‘More than half a century after the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" defined what a human being is and is entitled to, Catharine MacKinnon asks: are women human yet? If women were regarded as human, would they be sold into sexual slavery worldwide; veiled, silenced and imprisoned in homes; bred, and worked as menials for little or no pay; stoned for sex outside marriage or burned within it; mutilated genitally, impoverished economically, and mired in illiteracy - all as a matter of course and without effective recourse?’

I think just the title is thought-provoking although of course some men are also “impoverished economically, and mired in illiteracy”.

I’d agree with Joss too about “I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning)” as that seems to cause just as much discrimination.

...................................

You can question the meaning of life on a floaty
island of your own for a while.

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by redhead:
Hey you all, I know this is a tangent but, if you've been keeping up on the commentary on whedonesque, what do you think about sansmercy being banned.

When I posted earlier about how proud I was of the articulate intelligent fans, I alluded to some being not so good. Two of the posts I was talking about being "less good" were sansmercy and caleb[edit, maybe not caleb--my memory is someone advocated going to another country and forcing them to conform to our belief set].

However, while I didn't like the violence and anger in either post, I also don't like that samsmercy who spoke out against Joss (wrongly IMO) was banned and anotehr who wholeheartedly(and somewhat violently) endorsed Joss apparently was not. Anyone else troubled by this?

edit: some of the later posts seem to indicate that sansmercy came back and made personal attacks. Can someone find this? My poor old eyes are aching and I can't find it.

If Sansmercy was banned for personal attacks, fine, that sort of thing should not be tolerated on a messageboard and banning is justified. If Sansmercy was banned for speaking out or having a differing opinion than someone (even Joss), that is censorship and it is wrong.

I have never seen any sort of censorship at Whedonesque so I tend to think it was the former and not the latter.

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FIREFLYPASSENGER

Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:08 PM

<>

I love this quote from Angel, I believe its from the episode Epiphany, I forget which season 2 or 3.

The only thing that matters is what we do. I love Joss' call to action. If we all take a step, ripples will come from that movement.

ANGELDOVE

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 4:11 AM

jwhedonaddict - I agree, those are my favorite quotes from the whedonverse as a whole (philosophy-wise anyway). It's a good thing you find solace in these things, and find a way to make it meaningful to you. I've been where you are, I know that doesn't help, I can't say I've been in the exact same place, but I've definitely been in one like it. The fact that you posted to this board is more than most will do, and as Joss said, just becoming knowledgeable about the subject so you can speak eloquently on its behalf is enough. It doesn't take money or the big win - remember, "even the smallest act of kindness can be the greatest thing in the world". Keep working on you, and keep the verse by your side. Use it for comfort, use it for inspiration, use it to get from day to day. What better use and tribute to his work could he ask for?

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crow:
As a raging feminist who loves many men I have often pondered the issue. Joss's theory of "womb envy" seems too simple to me (although maybe my theory is just as simple -- it's hard to see these things from outside).

I have always thought that men resented the sexual power women have over them (I certainly have resented the sexual power some men have had over me). I think we all resent being compelled in a direction that isn't the one we might have chosen if given a choice.

So for example when I have a hormonal compulsion to some man who does not reciprocate, I resent my powerlessness in the face of that compulsion. I resent the inevitable humiliation which accompanies said compulsion and I resent the man.

Powerlessness in the face of anything is difficult, and many many times, we are also powerless to fight back. When you are put in a humiliating situation at work, you are often incapable of taking any action on your own behalf. But, in the case of men vs. women, a man can fight back and in fact release ALL of his frustrations about his earthly powerlessness on this one cause.

And, in that way all humans have, we have a tendency to group our resentments. That is, if one man humiliates me through rejection, I can ascribe his nastiness to all men and resent all men for having the potential power to humiliate me through rejection.

It is also quite difficult to reject our own DNA programming so that others do not have the power to belittle us through their rejection. God knows, I try hard not to be a DNA puppet, but there I'm also fighting a force that may be more powerful than I am.

Moved to musing,

Crow

I think your theory is very discouraging and also very probable.

Not that I completely discount the womb envy thing, because on a very fundamental level men really do not have much of a job in nature. The number of women determines the number of babies being born while - discounting genetic imperfections - it takes only one man. The rest are pretty expendable. On a purely biological level.

That can't not have an impact.

But the sexual resentment issue probably has a much greater infuence on how men deal with that. They could, after all, theoretically try to be as helpful as possible while having as much sex as possible, but coupled with the threat of rejection you describe, that doesn't really work toward a healthy sense of identity.

Men are human beings and shouldn't have a "helper" status any more than women should.

Not to mention the testosterone. Men are physically different. Not lesser women any more than women are lesser men.

I get that men feel the need to have a territory of their own. An independent and valid status that is somewhat defined by their differences to women, apart from anything biology dictates.

I just wish that it didn't have to be so complicated and full of superiority/inferiority and mutual exclusion that it creates such a distance as to make women objects in their eyes rather than peers in humanity.

Maybe if men weren't physically stronger than women, we'd all be happier. Rape and "I'm bigger so I'm right!" gender oppression wouldn't be much of an issue and we would be forced to solve our problems in a rational way.

I'm glad and grateful, though, that we strive for rationality enough that we have come this far in spite of those factors. All things considered, that's pretty amazing and encourages my hope that the rest will catch up, too.

JWHEDONADDICT

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:47 AM

Angeldove: Thank you for your words. I definitely will do my best to honor him by doing what I can for others.

**************************************
"What if you could have the power? Now? In every generation, one Slayer is born...because a bunch of men who died thousands of years ago made up that rule...
So I say we change the rule. I say my power should be our power...
Every girl who could have the power, will have the power. Can stand up, will stand up...
Make your choice. Are you ready to be strong?"--Buffy Summers, May 20, 2003

"In Joss We Trust."

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