Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Friday, May 25, 2007 06:02
VIEWED: 15041
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Quote:I think these are question that will have to be left rhetorical, because if these miracles occurred as they are literally depicted, there is no one here with the understanding to explain them to begin with. None of us were there to tell you for sure if it happened, and none of us have the grasp of nature to explain them. We don’t completely understand the world we live in now, but we do know that, at least, at the quantum level, some rather miraculous things may happen. There are plenty of mysteries in science that have yet to be explored, and there are aspects of reality that our minds simply lack, and probably will always lack, the capacity to understand. I’m of the mind to believe that there is far more to the universe and reality then we as a people will ever come close to fully understanding.
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:I think these are question that will have to be left rhetorical, because if these miracles occurred as they are literally depicted, there is no one here with the understanding to explain them to begin with. None of us were there to tell you for sure if it happened, and none of us have the grasp of nature to explain them. We don’t completely understand the world we live in now, but we do know that, at least, at the quantum level, some rather miraculous things may happen. There are plenty of mysteries in science that have yet to be explored, and there are aspects of reality that our minds simply lack, and probably will always lack, the capacity to understand. I’m of the mind to believe that there is far more to the universe and reality then we as a people will ever come close to fully understanding.
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?
Well put! And with that I must run off to have breakfast.
-River
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Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this entire discussion is predicated on a couple of fundamental questions:
1) Do you accept methodological naturalism? This cornerstone of the scientific method holds that given any phenomenon, that phenomenon has a natural explanation. Clearly, science has been proceeding nicely on that assumption. The trouble is, it's beyond proof. You can't use scientific investigation to prove that every phenomenon has a natural explanation, because you'd have to have access to every phenomenon in the universe as well as the ability to test it--and that, of course, is impossible. So methodological naturalism can't be proven conclusively. So the naturalist still has to accept a proposition that is beyond proof.
2) Do you accept material reductionism? That is, do you accept that only physical things exist? Again, this suffers from the same problem as methodological naturalism: namely, it can't be proven. Spiritual entities would by definition be non-physical. But the physical sciences by definition only deal with the physically observable. So even if there were non-physical entitities, science wouldn't give access to them. And anyway, the foundational assertion of reductionism is that given any X, X is a physical thing. But we've already discussed the difficulty attendant to proven these sorts of propositions. So again, accepting material reductionism means believing a proposition that is beyond proof.
I think the way a person answers these questions is going to control the way they answer the question about miracles. A person who is highly committed to material reduction and to methodological naturalism is going to have to say, "no," because on their view miracles are impossible.
But suppose for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is a God, and that that God has the attributes that traditional believers say he does (again, for the sake of argument). One of the attributes traditionally predicated of God is that he is all-powerful--he can do anything. So remember, for the sake of argument, that we are supposing that there is a God, and that that God can do anything. Causing a man to walk on water (for instance) would certainly be within the power of such a being. Bending or suspending the normal operations of nature would certainly be within the power of such a being.
The frustrating thing about this type of discussion is that often times, those asserting the naturalistic worldview are taken to be "rational" whilst the religious believer is taken to be "irrational" or, worse, "illogical." But the existence of a deity is still an open question in that it has not been proven conclusively either way. So the intellectual burden on each of us is to examine the evidence and arguments and accept the position that seems to make the most sense. For myself, I am persuaded that I must reject both rigorous methodological naturalism as well as material reduction, and believe in a deity. Being that I do, I certainly believe it's possible for that deity to perform miracles. And being that I believe that, I have no problem accepting the Biblical account of miracles.
methodological naturalism? For the most part; from a "practical" perspective, yes.
material reductionism? Not necessarily, but I have yet to find a useful application of the contrary position.
-> and reflecting back to River...
Hence my slightly fuzzy answers on the above. And in any case, it's taken me a while to get there, but I'm prepared to say my positions are "faith based"
I suspect I don't have much more to contribute to the topic. As several folks have indicated, there's a leap of faith to be taken; that miracles are about us now, and in the past; or not. Ultimately, you will have to decide (or not ;-) ) on your own, which is probably stating the obvious.
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So i did some research and here is everything the Bible says about the Miracles: (refered to in the Bible as "works")
Quote:
Ps 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
Jn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else Believe me for the very works' sake.
Jn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. these things are good and profitable unto men.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Scorpion:
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Did Jesus walk on water, or raise the dead, or indeed come back from death himself? Most likely not (For the last two, he'd have to be the first zombie, which kinda clashes with what most folks think of him). It's possible that he produced those miracles. I would like to believe he did, but...
Church ain't known for its truths as much as its stretchin' of 'em. Most like, Bible hyped up Jesus's miracles, cuz the Son of God couldn't very well be average now, could he? Most like, he was just a Shepard what made sense to folks, and people ran with it from there.
-Danny
A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
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Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River
Ah, but is truth determined by what most people in this forum believe? All you got here is opinions, not truth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River
Ah, but is truth determined by what most people in this forum believe? All you got here is opinions, not truth.
Well there is that matter of some who do believe in God but don't believe in his miracles. I find that to be interesting.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well there is that matter of some who do believe in God but don't believe in his miracles. I find that to be interesting.
That is interesting, but I saw a fair bit of it in High School (which was Catholic). I recall the class where they covered the part about miracles and saints, and there was a fair bit of skepticism expressed. Luckily, the teacher handled that sort of thing well.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River
Sorry that I arrived at this topic late, but wanted to add my voice to the mix. I absolutely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed all of the miracles exactly as described, willingly died to pay my penalty for sin, rose in bodily form from the grave, and that he will come again as the King that he is. Those miracles validated that he truly was and is the Son of God. Not many will believe, but we're told to expect that. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. In fact, we are incapable of believing unless God himself enables us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If you are curious, River, God may be drawing you. Read the book of John, asking God first to open your eyes for understanding, and maybe you will discover faith. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html
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