Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Friday, May 25, 2007 06:02
VIEWED: 15041
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Of course, this entire discussion is predicated on a couple of fundamental questions:
1) Do you accept methodological naturalism? This cornerstone of the scientific method holds that given any phenomenon, that phenomenon has a natural explanation. Clearly, science has been proceeding nicely on that assumption. The trouble is, it's beyond proof. You can't use scientific investigation to prove that every phenomenon has a natural explanation, because you'd have to have access to every phenomenon in the universe as well as the ability to test it--and that, of course, is impossible. So methodological naturalism can't be proven conclusively. So the naturalist still has to accept a proposition that is beyond proof.
2) Do you accept material reductionism? That is, do you accept that only physical things exist? Again, this suffers from the same problem as methodological naturalism: namely, it can't be proven. Spiritual entities would by definition be non-physical. But the physical sciences by definition only deal with the physically observable. So even if there were non-physical entitities, science wouldn't give access to them. And anyway, the foundational assertion of reductionism is that given any X, X is a physical thing. But we've already discussed the difficulty attendant to proven these sorts of propositions. So again, accepting material reductionism means believing a proposition that is beyond proof.
I think the way a person answers these questions is going to control the way they answer the question about miracles. A person who is highly committed to material reduction and to methodological naturalism is going to have to say, "no," because on their view miracles are impossible.
But suppose for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is a God, and that that God has the attributes that traditional believers say he does (again, for the sake of argument). One of the attributes traditionally predicated of God is that he is all-powerful--he can do anything. So remember, for the sake of argument, that we are supposing that there is a God, and that that God can do anything. Causing a man to walk on water (for instance) would certainly be within the power of such a being. Bending or suspending the normal operations of nature would certainly be within the power of such a being.
The frustrating thing about this type of discussion is that often times, those asserting the naturalistic worldview are taken to be "rational" whilst the religious believer is taken to be "irrational" or, worse, "illogical." But the existence of a deity is still an open question in that it has not been proven conclusively either way. So the intellectual burden on each of us is to examine the evidence and arguments and accept the position that seems to make the most sense. For myself, I am persuaded that I must reject both rigorous methodological naturalism as well as material reduction, and believe in a deity. Being that I do, I certainly believe it's possible for that deity to perform miracles. And being that I believe that, I have no problem accepting the Biblical account of miracles.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.
Not really.
The message itself makes sense and loses nearly nothing by removing the showiness of physical miracles.
Love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness... Those things place us as closely to heaven here on Earth as is possible. In my own private "The universe might be ruled by purple elephants" agnosticism, the story of Jesus is mostly a metaphor for human interaction and it makes none of it less powerful to me for the removal of God himself.
Replace God with "order of the universe", more concept, less personification, and you still end up with a set of golden rules.Quote:
But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?
If "Love Thy Neighbor" doesn't resonate with you, a healed blind won't change that. It'll just make you greedy for some miracle saving yourself. That's not faith, either.
Actually, I think that a healed blind person would have a major effect on how I view the Christian religion, or at least the key players: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how I've viewed them. Especially if I was there to see that healing for myself. An event like that might change my mind to the forces that are working out there and maybe bring some truth of that home to me. It would force me to think about the choice of which side am I going to be on.
People say that Faith is all you need in this particular religion, but I think most people need to have that faith based on something that they have seen and experienced for themselves; I'm one of them I suppose. I think this mystical character Jesus would have had a profound effect on the people of this world if he chose to show up in this modern age and started healing people and preaching his head off. This would cause a great stir in the world because people would be saying " OMG, it's all true!" and be forced to look inward.
Saying " Love Thy Neighbor" is fine and all, and it looks nice written on paper or spoken by a poet, but it does not stand up to the acid test of living. People respect action more than words. The witnessing of a person getting healed would carry more weight with the masses.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:
You do _not_ need Jesus to exist to follow "his" teachings. You do _not_ need Jesus' miracles to have faith in God. Given faith in God, you do _not_ need Jesus to have died on the cross to have your sins forgiven. God could do that well enough on his own. Or do you doubt his power
EDIT: We're also going to have to realize that the bible, while written decades /after/ "Jesus' death," is also pretty much a collection of re-hashed stories (with spin) of earlier religions e.g. Babylonian. In other words, not only is it horribly inconsistent (if taken even remotely literally), but its stories are hardly unique.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
I am not a Christian, I'm just an interested party so there is no "doubting of anyones words" to be careful of. Occasionally I like to read religious books, and this week it was the Kings James Bible. It reads like complete science-fiction, but it is very interesting. All the books within that book make reference to Jesus in name or some word-symbol, or by some word metaphor. This is found mostly in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament Jesus's name is all over the place, and no metaphor is needed.
This weekend I was reading about all of these miracles that Jesus performed and found myself getting madder and madder. I don't know why, but angry I was, so I decided to present this topic to you women and men to see what you had to say about it. For myself I find it all very hard to believe that such things had occurred. It makes you wonder about the detail in which these miracles were reported, and the writers seem VERY persistent regarding those miracles. Like I said before in earlier posts...something out of the ordinary had happened back then, and that something was so major that a bunch of people felt it was important enough to write down. Also later on, millions of people laid their lives on the line to protect, or project this information to the point where whole empires were brought down and millions died for it.
Something happened, and I want to know what.
Desperately Seeking Susan
-River
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To simply answer the question. No. I think the Bible is full of stories that have been around for many years before it was written. The author(s) have just bent them and tweeked them here and there to fit the morality tales they wanted to portray.
I look at it like an ancient "The Divinci Code." Loosely based on real events, but still a work of fiction.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Actually, I think that a healed blind person would have a major effect on how I view the Christian religion, or at least the key players: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how I've viewed them. Especially if I was there to see that healing for myself. An event like that might change my mind to the forces that are working out there and maybe bring some truth of that home to me. It would force me to think about the choice of which side am I going to be on.
Would it really? You still wouldn't know if it was God granting the healing or, for lack of better supernatural alternative, "magic". Or maybe Baal or a network of 17 freelancing deities or aliens.
You'd still take the word of the healer/prophet that it was God's doing and that there is such a thing as heaven or the holy ghost.
A miracle is a physical manifestation of something. You still wouldn't know for sure what. Faith tells you what.
Faith is by definition not based on knowledge but on... trust.
Quote:
People say that Faith is all you need in this particular religion, but I think most people need to have that faith based on something that they have seen and experienced for themselves; I'm one of them I suppose.
How is that faith, though? That's... being convinced of something by a factual experience. Maybe frightened into submission or bribed by promising prospects. Basically, it's completely divorced from the message of Jesus himself.
Quote:
I think this mystical character Jesus would have had a profound effect on the people of this world if he chose to show up in this modern age and started healing people and preaching his head off. This would cause a great stir in the world because people would be saying " OMG, it's all true!" and be forced to look inward.
They would be looking outward, not inward. Outward at the miracle and the way it might benefit them, and the power behind it and how it might harm them.
Looking inward requires no miracle.
Quote:
Saying " Love Thy Neighbor" is fine and all, and it looks nice written on paper or spoken by a poet, but it does not stand up to the acid test of living. People respect action more than words. The witnessing of a person getting healed would carry more weight with the masses.
All that "action" might change is people's own actions. They'd adapt them as much to what is required to pass the test of the new miracle-sending top-dog deity. Until the novelty has worn off and they go back to how they used to be.
They wouldn't suddenly want to be kind to their neighbor unless the message itself resonated with them. The only way to make that happen is to show it to people by example. Just like human beings learn how to love by being loved first.
Everything else is bribery or coercion, not.. faith or actual inner reflection.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redlava:
To simply answer the question. No. I think the Bible is full of stories that have been around for many years before it was written. The author(s) have just bent them and tweeked them here and there to fit the morality tales they wanted to portray.
I look at it like an ancient "The Divinci Code." Loosely based on real events, but still a work of fiction.
Well if that's the case then I feel real sorry for all of those millions of Christians out there that take everything in the Bible as the absolute word of God. The absolute, essential part of the Bible was Jesus dying and coming back 3 days later. That's a miracle and if that didn't happen then there goes the Christian religion down the toilet, because that event was the glue that holds the religion itself in place. It's a shame though. it would have been nice to know that miracles were possible. I guess we live in a miracle-free world.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Of course i do. Its called Faith.
Why do you think we don't get to see stuff like what happened during Jesus's time today in this modern age? I would imagine people seeing other people being healed of their problems like blindness, or retardation, or cancer in this modern day by a person who had a strong faith, and a complete belief in God as a major draw to joiningg the Christian church and worshiping that God. Why did that stuff only happen in the past? Why not have it happen now? Could it be that back then people believed much deeper than now? Or was it all just made up?
-River
Thats not the point. The point is- Faith. You believe these things to be true because Christ is of God. Modern day has nothing to do with it.Christ is yesterday,today and forever
I pulled Faith in Christianity from Wikipedia and here is what it says
Quote:
Faith in Christianity centers on faith in the Resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) '... the gospel I preached to you... Otherwise, you have believed in vain...'. The same book says, in 15:14: "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (see also Acts 2:32; Philippians 3:10; John 11:25). That he was raised from the death for God the Father. Most Christians believe that God is one eternal being who exists as three distinct, eternal, and indivisible persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ the eternal Word), and the Holy Spirit.
The precise meaning of Faith in Christianity differs in the various Christian belief systems
You can read it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity
To believe Jesus as the son and Eternal word (Gods promise as was reveealed in the Old testement) and preformed miracles is a to believe in what has no evidence.Faith has nothing to do with tangible There is no direct thing that you can say-"Here this is Jesus"
Its just a question of believing.
Like people who believe in Magic and a God or a Goddess- You put your faith in that.
My friend practices Voodoo.She believes that charms and rituals will heal illness'. I believe prayer words wonders.
Now i consider myself a mondern gal. I have read Darwin and Steven Hawking. They had tangible evidence about the universe around them. But i have also read Inherit the Wind.Christianity is sometimes accused of being close minded.IMO- there is no right and wrong when it comes to creation vs the big bang.Both should be taught. I believe knowlege is POWER. And teaching children everything-both sides to every argument,equally and without restraint.
Now i have read everyones comments,some very negative, and all i have to say is although you may not believe,Jesus indeed does love you. If there is some one judging you and they call themseleves Christian- Ignore them. Christians cannot judge others. I judge noone. I want you to believe what you want-I shall respect your judgements. For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?
Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad could you slow down and take thetimeto see them?
Scorpion:
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@RiveR6213:
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Desperately Seeking Susan
"""
Or they never happened and the /stories/ where presented to people. Basically, the moment you realize that the bible is *far* from literal truth, you come to a whole bunch of necessary conclusions (or necessary questions). Like, did Jesus actually exist.
The way you are going about this is also quite odd. You keep talking about a literal interpretation of the bible. I/We keep saying that this is a *very* poor assumption. One which is completely unfounded. You say that you don't believe these things happened. But, you keep interpreting the bible as literal fact even though pretty much everyone here has told you (some with reference) that the bible certainly is _not_. Why are you blocking this?
Btw, Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament. Thus there are exactly zero referenced, metaphor or not, about Jesus.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?
Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad do you have guts enough to see them?
What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.
Do have the "guts" to see that?
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:
"""
Desperately Seeking Susan
"""
Or they never happened and the /stories/ where presented to people. Basically, the moment you realize that the bible is *far* from literal truth, you come to a whole bunch of necessary conclusions (or necessary questions). Like, did Jesus actually exist.
The way you are going about this is also quite odd. You keep talking about a literal interpretation of the bible. I/We keep saying that this is a *very* poor assumption. One which is completely unfounded. You say that you don't believe these things happened. But, you keep interpreting the bible as literal fact even though pretty much everyone here has told you (some with reference) that the bible certainly is _not_. Why are you blocking this?
Btw, Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament. Thus there are exactly zero referenced, metaphor or not, about Jesus.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
I am blocking nothing. I'm focused on the fact that SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened 2,000+ years ago. Also, it is true that most of the people in this thread said that they don't believe the miracles occurred including myself, but I guess I'm still a fan of the big focal point.
My understanding of people is that on the whole they are lazy. One has to be inspired by self, or an event to actually sit down and put pen to paper, or in their case scrolls. A group of people took the time to write these books. Sure, thousands of years have past and these books were subjected to translations and changes, but even if that's the case people in this modern age STILL try to follow the teachings, and STILL believe the miracles, so from where I stand, something miracles happened 2000+ years ago that was so profound in the human mind, and was such a unique experience, that it could stand the test of time. I don't know what that "something" is, but I'm going to go find out.
Also, I'm not one to go along with the crowd on an action or opinion if I have doubts.
-River
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