Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Friday, May 25, 2007 06:02
VIEWED: 15041
PAGE 3 of 9
Quote:And such a story is inspiring in and of itself. Christianity spread originally, in the early church, almost exclusively among the poor, the slaves and the women. Later it would become the religion of the upper class, but it would spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world before that happened. People whose miserable existence under the heel of society led them to seek hope in the charity and love expressed by man who stood against the oppressor and overcame. In many respects it was a religion that was very unusual for its time. Most Greco-Roman religions and European pagan religions in general (including the German and Celtic religions) were designed to exalt the state or plead to man’s baser instincts. In other words, they were religions that either defined the rules of society or granted leisure or freedom from those rules, but that also meant that they tended to favor the powerful: the wealthy and the warriors. People who were in a position to benefit from a religion that espoused control or people whose wealth allowed them the free time to partake of hedonistic pleasures. Christianity was different, because it was a religion of control that did not exalt the state or free people of their responsibility. It provided rules by which society should function, but it also praised the meek and the poor and the sick. People who, quite frankly, were often ignored completely in other religions.
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.
Interesting thought though.
-River
It is an interesting thought; but how is that much different than the story the bible presents? If you believe genetics alone tells the story; I would have expected that others from the line of David (et. al., I'm a bit weak on Mary's side; assuming lack of immaculate conception that the father was Joseph), that others would be cropping up with this ability. I'd be more inclined to accept divine parentage to explain that trait if he had it.
Back to "modern miracles", I have to believe there's still folks doing the traveling faith healing bit; if you really want to check it out, see if any of the current crop strike you as genuine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:And such a story is inspiring in and of itself. Christianity spread originally, in the early church, almost exclusively among the poor, the slaves and the women. Later it would become the religion of the upper class, but it would spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world before that happened. People whose miserable existence under the heel of society led them to seek hope in the charity and love expressed by man who stood against the oppressor and overcame. In many respects it was a religion that was very unusual for its time. Most Greco-Roman religions and European pagan religions in general (including the German and Celtic religions) were designed to exalt the state or plead to man’s baser instincts. In other words, they were religions that either defined the rules of society or granted leisure or freedom from those rules, but that also meant that they tended to favor the powerful: the wealthy and the warriors. People who were in a position to benefit from a religion that espoused control or people whose wealth allowed them the free time to partake of hedonistic pleasures. Christianity was different, because it was a religion of control that did not exalt the state or free people of their responsibility. It provided rules by which society should function, but it also praised the meek and the poor and the sick. People who, quite frankly, were often ignored completely in other religions.
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
Well it's a story that took on a life of its own. Let me see...healing the blind, the crazy, the dead, the diseased. Bringing people back from the dead, and controlling weather, and flora and fawna. Place the meekest, and the weakest person first. Walking on water, and being able to take nightmarish punishment and still forgive your punisher, and coming back from the dead. Also forgiving your enemies. They were pretty busy back in the days of Jesus. Life must have sucked so bad that someone had to step up to the plate and become a hero to the people...but still. SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened back then. Something so remarkable that if it were to happen today the same result would take place.
Maybe those miracles did happen?
-River
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I'm not 'xactly a believer, but I attended a church for most of the last 10 years, every Sunday, and studied a lot of the Bible and a lot of commentary on it. I sorta hate ta say it, butI agree with most of what FinnMac had to say above.
And I've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong, and find him speaking directly to me, and hitting the truth exactly.
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First off, while the Bible is a great book for spiritual guidance and clarity, one cannot put too much stock into it and take the stories it tells to literally. It is after all a 2000 plus year old text with numerous chapters that were left out that has been filtered through at least five different languages. Obviously some stuff will be lost through the various translations.
That being said, I think the stories that are told in the Bible are true to some extent. True enough that this specific version can still hold relevance and meaning thousands of years later and are the cornerstones of a powerful religion. Now what actually happened may not have been as fantastic as depicted in the Bible, but maybe a more stripped down, closer to reality version. And that through embellishment and perspective, that details would have changed and evolved.
Now, who knows if Jesus was this Holy Superman who could do all this stuff or was just some guy who had some really good ideas and had the spiritual clarity that influenced others. He still was an important spiritual leader who helped the collective spirituality of the human race. Whether or not he could actually walk on water or turn water into wine is irrelevant.
As per miracles, I honestly believe that they happen. I personally never have seen one, but I have faith that they happen to others and not in a Hallmark/Oprah kind of way but in a more understated and personal way. Dr. Manhattan's monologue in WATCHMEN about thermo-dynamic miracles was one bit of text I find relevant. I makes me agree that every living thing in this world is in one way or another a true miracle.
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'm not 'xactly a believer, but I attended a church for most of the last 10 years, every Sunday, and studied a lot of the Bible and a lot of commentary on it. I sorta hate ta say it, butI agree with most of what FinnMac had to say above.
And I've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong, and find him speaking directly to me, and hitting the truth exactly.
Look, I'm not a Christian so feel totally free to express yourself at anytime. I won't take it personally at all. I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.
Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.
But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?
A lot of people assume that the people in the past were stupid, superstitious, and ignorant. It's true that many of them were, but a lot of them were not, and all of our science and math is based on those people from 2,000 years ago. I don't believe that the miracles happened, but maybe I don't believe because it sounds so impossible and defies all kinds of laws of physics that I can't believe.
Now I think I'm confused.
-River
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.
Not really.
The message itself makes sense and loses nearly nothing by removing the showiness of physical miracles.
Love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness... Those things place us as closely to heaven here on Earth as is possible. In my own private "The universe might be ruled by purple elephants" agnosticism, the story of Jesus is mostly a metaphor for human interaction and it makes none of it less powerful to me for the removal of God himself.
Replace God with "order of the universe", more concept, less personification, and you still end up with a set of golden rules.
Quote:
But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?
Then what? Nothing.
Is it really relevant? Compared to what Jesus taught, those miracles are carnivale tricks.
They are designed to give credence to his God-given message, not the content of the message itself. Which was necessary in a time when religion equaled politics. You had to have a really good reason to change your personal philosophy back then because it defined where you belonged, how you were treated, a lot more directly than today.
In days of religions freedom, as we all like to think we have, miracles should matter a lot lkess than what the actual message tells you. If "Love Thy Neighbor" doesn't resonate with you, a healed blind won't change that. It'll just make you greedy for some miracle saving yourself. That's not faith, either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.
Interesting thought though.
-River
First prove (or even show hard evidence) that Jesus existed. Watch the documentary I linked to see why people question this.
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@RiveR6213:
You do _not_ need Jesus to exist to follow "his" teachings. You do _not_ need Jesus' miracles to have faith in God. Given faith in God, you do _not_ need Jesus to have died on the cross to have your sins forgiven. God could do that well enough on his own. Or do you doubt his power 
EDIT: We're also going to have to realize that the bible, while written decades /after/ "Jesus' death," is also pretty much a collection of re-hashed stories (with spin) of earlier religions e.g. Babylonian. In other words, not only is it horribly inconsistent (if taken even remotely literally), but its stories are hardly unique.
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?
Yes...
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