Do You Believe the Miracles in the Bible Really Happened?
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Friday, May 25, 2007 06:02
VIEWED: 15041
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Having relaxed the constraints, I feel "empowered" to now participate.
Some of the biblical miracles may be miracles "against human nature", for instance, it is possible the miracle of feeding the crowd with fish and loaves was merely a matter of getting folks who had brought something to share with their neighbor, to "pass the basket" sos to speak. Frankly, given human nature, getting folks to even cooperate on that level might well qualify as a miracle.
There are conditions such as "histerical blindness" which are easily susceptible to sudden healing; and faith in a man's ability to do this could well be all it takes. Healing the lepers... well, now that one is a bit harder to explain.
Personally, do I believe literally in the miracles of the bible? I'd have to say no. But that is simply a personal belief.
As to miracles in the modern age, many believe they are a common occurrance. Keep in mind, that every time the catholic church declares a new saint, miracles must be attributed to the candidate (and as importantly, not attributed to any of the "known" saints). The church is not shabby in their investigations; they do -not- want to be made a fool of in the age of modern science on the modern press. They may be low key, but they are thorough in their investigations. They certainly believe in miracles in the modern age.
An aquaintance of mine (Bob), in high school, was born with certain deformities that made it difficult to walk; some surgeries over time made things better, but he was never far without his crutches. One evening, he went to a faith healer; I cannot recall the affiliation, other than "not catholic" (we went to a catholic HS, so I just recall he had a certain unease due to the discrepency); after the healer did his bit, Bob -walked- off the stage; I gather he did more walking that night without his crutches than he had before, nor (at least at the time he discussed it with me) since. The "since" part being the problem. Why was he able to walk off the stage? Was it a miracle, that wore off? His guilt at going to a "competative religious" event caused him to lose what the miracle had gained? His faith waivered, so he lost the miracle? I can't tell you; I can only tell you by the time he talked to me about it, he was feeling very bitter.
Do I believe in modern day miracles? No; I will concede things happen we cannot explain, but I put that at the fault of our understanding of science and the human condition than tending to attribute it to "miracles". Obviously, others feel otherwise. I will concede that both my position and those held contrary-wise are largely "faith based" positions.
I will even go as far as saying I hope I'm wrong; my only reservation is that god seems a bit stingy with his miracles.
Do of course keep in mind when asking for miracles, even the faithful will say, "Sometimes the answer is 'no'."
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Having relaxed the constraints, I feel "empowered" to now participate.
Some of the biblical miracles may be miracles "against human nature", for instance, it is possible the miracle of feeding the crowd with fish and loaves was merely a matter of getting folks who had brought something to share with their neighbor, to "pass the basket" sos to speak. Frankly, given human nature, getting folks to even cooperate on that level might well qualify as a miracle.
There are conditions such as "histerical blindness" which are easily susceptible to sudden healing; and faith in a man's ability to do this could well be all it takes. Healing the lepers... well, now that one is a bit harder to explain.
Personally, do I believe literally in the miracles of the bible? I'd have to say no. But that is simply a personal belief.
As to miracles in the modern age, many believe they are a common occurrance. Keep in mind, that every time the catholic church declares a new saint, miracles must be attributed to the candidate (and as importantly, not attributed to any of the "known" saints). The church is not shabby in their investigations; they do -not- want to be made a fool of in the age of modern science on the modern press. They may be low key, but they are thorough in their investigations. They certainly believe in miracles in the modern age.
An aquaintance of mine (Bob), in high school, was born with certain deformities that made it difficult to walk; some surgeries over time made things better, but he was never far without his crutches. One evening, he went to a faith healer; I cannot recall the affiliation, other than "not catholic" (we went to a catholic HS, so I just recall he had a certain unease due to the discrepency); after the healer did his bit, Bob -walked- off the stage; I gather he did more walking that night without his crutches than he had before, nor (at least at the time he discussed it with me) since. The "since" part being the problem. Why was he able to walk off the stage? Was it a miracle, that wore off? His guilt at going to a "competative religious" event caused him to lose what the miracle had gained? His faith waivered, so he lost the miracle? I can't tell you; I can only tell you by the time he talked to me about it, he was feeling very bitter.
Do I believe in modern day miracles? No; I will concede things happen we cannot explain, but I put that at the fault of our understanding of science and the human condition than tending to attribute it to "miracles". Obviously, others feel otherwise. I will concede that both my position and those held contrary-wise are largely "faith based" positions.
I will even go as far as saying I hope I'm wrong; my only reservation is that god seems a bit stingy with his miracles.
Do of course keep in mind when asking for miracles, even the faithful will say, "Sometimes the answer is 'no'."
With the Christian God most of the time the answer is no, and Science is magicks explained.
I'm just so up on this particular subject because when reading the Bible I am just taken aback by all the healing being done by Jesus. Did the writers of the bible really believe all of this? A lot of them claimed to have witnessed the miracles, and they go on and on about how cool it was. Jesus himself claims that we all have this ability if we have faith and love god with all of our hearts and souls. Do you know someone who is really walking the walk with God and Jesus? Are they healing anyone? I know one person that is what I would call the perfect Christian, and I don't see her healing anyone.
I'm going to keep pressing this subject because I KNOW there has to be someone out there that can say "Yes, I believe in the Miracles in the bible and I have for myself have seen these things in this here modern times."
Just the need to know.
-River
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Something pointed out by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason" (I'll paraphrase): miracles are a myth invented by the Christian church, as God can do everything. Raising from the dead and healing the blind is just as miraculous as the creation of the tiniest speck of dirt.
It always confused me how religious people called for miracles and addressed things as miracles, when, by believing in an all powerful deity, they should realize that the ground they stand on or the chair they sit in is far more miraculous than the simple defiance of rules and behaviors that the deity created.
It would be like saying falling toward the sky is a miracle. It would be a miracle of I did of my own power, or if any one of you did it of your power. But in relation to God, it is moreso a miracle that he made gravity, than it is that he made something refuse to adhere to gravity.
I always viewed religious people asking for miracles insultingly self-centered. What is your very existence, the food you eat, the air you breath, if it is not a miracle? If you believe someone is responsible for all of that, why would you ask him for more than what he has given you?
To me, things labeled miracles always seemed the least miraculous of all things.
May we never let Firefly die.
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Quote:
Originally posted by xitwound117:
Something pointed out by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason" (I'll paraphrase): miracles are a myth invented by the Christian church, as God can do everything. Rising from the dead and healing the blind is just as miraculous as the creation of the tiniest speck of dirt.
It always confused me how religious people called for miracles and addressed things as miracles, when, by believing in an all powerful deity, they should realize that the ground they stand on or the chair they sit in is far more miraculous than the simple defiance of rules and behaviors that the deity created.
It would be like saying falling toward the sky is a miracle. It would be a miracle of I did of my own power, or if any one of you did it of your power. But in relation to God, it is moreso a miracle that he made gravity, than it is that he made something refuse to adhere to gravity.
May we never let Firefly die.
So in the religions and beliefs that were in place before Christianity hit the scene, there were no such thing as miracles? Miracles are a creation of the Christian church?
-River
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Quote:Well first of all, none of the gospels as they exist in the Bible were written in the “time of Jesus.” They were all written many decades after his death. So while these might be considered contemporary with Jesus in the historical sense, strictly speaking we can’t say that we know that the people who wrote these gospels really knew Jesus or actually witnessed his works. They were actually writing from a second hand position. Now that shouldn’t be construed as the books of the Bible have no historical significant. The fact is that very little of our classical and ancient history comes form direct or perfectly contemporary sources. One example of which is Alexander the Great, of which no a single historical document, to my understanding, is even remotely contemporary. They were all written hundreds of years after his death. My point is that almost all classical and ancient history is based on hearsay. Pretty much our entire understanding of ancient history would not stand up in court.
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don’t believe in miracles. I’m not saying this to say that miracles don’t exist; I’ve just never seen one. I say this because I’ve never experienced one myself, nor in anyone one I know. If I were to fall off a 60 story building and survived, I might call that a miracle. I’ve been reading the bible, specifically the books with Jesus in it. I read about all of these miracles, and I’m not certain what to make of them. Someone felt strongly enough about them to add them to the bible, but you would think that if events like those happened in the time of Jesus, they would have periodically happened in other times…even in our modern times.
With that understanding, the question: do I believe the miracles as literally (and at best second-handed) reported in the Bible? Not really. On the other hand, do I believe that something so inspiring and uplifting to the hearts and minds of the true observers occurred that led those people to tell others of how awesome that spectacle was? Yes. We can say, almost as a fact, that Jesus existed and that he said or did something that inspired people in a miraculous way. I would say that it is a very, very short list of people who have inspired others so miraculously as Jesus.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
So in the religions and beliefs that were in place before Christianity hit the scene, there were no such thing as miracles? Miracles are a creation of the Christian church?
-River
It doesn't address miracles as broadly as that. Its examination of religion beyond Deism is limited to the three major religions, and their flaws. It doesn't speak of miracles in general, but specifically of miracles propagated by the Christian church, and says that they are invented by the same people that invented many of the other issues it found with Christianity. A better paraphrase: Christian miracles are myths created by the Christian church.
Anyway, my comments can be applied to anything viewed as a miracle by people who believe in one or more all-powerful deities.
May we never let Firefly die.
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Wow!
Some smart people here tonight!
Well, for a Christian myth it's pretty damned compelling. It seems that a lot of modern day Christian's faith is based on the miracles, and Jesus coming back from the dead. His death alone is a miracle, and a sign. So you are saying that Jesus didn't come back from the dead? Without Jesus coming back from the dead that kills off the whole Christian religion. It appears that Jesus coming back from the dead is a focal point that makes or breaks the Bible.
Whatever happened during the time that Jesus was alive I suspect was an unusual situation. Something happened.
We need to send a camera crew back through time.
-River
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I think much of the original message (if there was one) of the Christian church was polluted a very long time ago by the power hungry, who left it in an almost unrecognizable state.
Personally, I feel like if an all-powerful deity wanted to be known to those that he created, he'd use a far better way than the methods described in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Make us all depend upon the word and writing of our fellow man (who we all know is willing to lie, cheat, and murder) doesn't strike me as something a god would do.
I think the fact is if there is an deity who gives half a crap about any of us, he hasn't made himself known yet.
And once I come to that conclusion, the matter of what really happened during Jesus's lifetime seems immaterial. Whether or not any of what is said about Jesus is true doesn't affect my life and how I will live it in any way whatsoever. And I think that's the only reason anyone should take Jesus into account; because of how they will live their lives. If you just want the truth about what happened, that's never comin'.
May we never let Firefly die.
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Historically speaking the Bible was written as parable/allegory. This was the writing style of the time. To attribute literal truth to it is self-delusion.
All that one needs to do is look at the different versions of say, Jesus' resurrection to get this. There are so many different conflicting things in those stories it isn't funny.
EDIT: These might be helpful:
By John Shelby Spong - retired Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Christianity-Must-Change-Die/dp/0060675365
The God Who Wasn't There
http://www.thegodmovie.com/
A decent documentary through the eyes of a former fundamentalist.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.
Interesting thought though.
-River
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