What our world has become.

POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Monday, June 29, 2026 21:34
VIEWED: 23018
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FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 5:48 PM

Home, finally, long story to that you might actually get in the form of a rant, later, maybe.
(fyi, not in a good mood and real tired so i might be a little...irrational...)

I've little useful to add here beyond stating for the record - no, you've not convinced me one bit of the need for social order of the type we commonly practice in the US, not even close.

In fact, if anything this thread further convinces me it's a deterimental factor to society, humanity, and all the things that, you know, actually *matter* in my eyes.

I also think it's asinine and that the world isn't, you know, gonna END if you're a little late coming in, especially if you make up that time at the end of the day - even when I worked a 9-to-5, my boss saw little difference between 9:00-5:00 and 9:18 - 5:30, long as the job gone done.

Besides which, lemme ask you this question ehe ?
How many of you are doing 50-70 hours work...
On a 40-hour "Salary" used to dodge pesky things like overtime and you know, actually paying you for your work, yes ?

The american "work environment" is so greviously detrimental to the mental state of a person, that if you took most foreigners and set them into it, within six months they would go crazy - we work the most hours, with the least vacation, and somehow wind up LESS productive, answer me why that is, hmm ?

No, this "social order" is just bullshit, is what it is, a control mechanism to keep the peons in line, and watching this fully convinces me of it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

ROCKETJOCK

Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:43 PM

Actually, the interesting thing here to me is that, under the stated circumstances so many people stopped to smell the roses, and pay for the privlege, not so few.

The article states that the street concert lasted 45 minutes, and pulled in $52.00. (And yes, I am counting the twenty that the woman who recognized Mr. Bell threw in. Ask any street performer; money is money.)

Brethren and Sistren, that's better than sixty dollars an hour! How many of us earn that much?

Add in the fact that this performance took place at rush hour in a busy public transit station -- or in other words, dealing with a deck so cold it might have been dipped in liquid oxygen -- and I'd say the public taste acquited itself fairly well.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I've little useful to add here beyond stating for the record - no, you've not convinced me one bit of the need for social order of the type we commonly practice in the US, not even close.

Is that what you were asking? I was thinking that we were talking about social structure in general which is not only necessary but inevitable. If you are talking about the U.S. then yeah there's a lot of dumb crap that can be done away with, though there's probably a fair bit that actually makes sense too, the problem being finding an agreement on what falls into which category.

Quote:
I also think it's asinine and that the world isn't, you know, gonna END if you're a little late coming in, especially if you make up that time at the end of the day - even when I worked a 9-to-5, my boss saw little difference between 9:00-5:00 and 9:18 - 5:30, long as the job gone done.

Of course not, but if you were habitually significantly late he'd probably notice and not in a good way.

Here's the thing though, the "stop and listen" advocates keep talking like there is only one street musician around but that's not the way it usually is. If I stop at one street musician for 2 or 3 minutes then it's no big deal, if I stop at every street musician I pass for 2 or 3 minutes then it adds up, fast. I have no interest in getting up any earlier then I already do just to stop and listen to music I don't know played on an instrument that I don't really care for.

That brings up the question that's never been answered here, why should I stop? What reason do I have to stop and listen a street musician? Why should I pay a street musician any attention at all? If I want to listen to music I can listen to an mp3 player on the move or get to work and listen to the radio or mp3's on my computer.

RUE

Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:27 PM

Agent,

"Since you're the one with the experience, what are the responses in cities of comparable size and cultural offers, at morning rush hour in a spot of public transit in other countries?"

Bad video and quite a bit more bustle and people performing, but Toronto response during rush hour

Here is a fair portion of the video from Washington DC

Bruce Springsteen in Copenhagen - you have to watch to near the end where they pan to the crowd

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, May 17, 2007 8:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Bad video and quite a bit more bustle and people performing, but Toronto response during rush hour

There's a pretty huge difference between standing off to one side playing music and dancing around the middle of the crowd. If someone wearing a jesters hat comes dancing by me of course I'm going to pay attention (and probably get the hell away from them). If Bell had been getting in people's way dancing around the area wearing a rainbow wig he'd have gotten a lot more attention.

Quote:
Bruce Springsteen in Copenhagen - you have to watch to near the end where they pan to the crowd

Bruce Springsteen is a pop star whose face and music are well known by a huge number of people. If I showed a picture of Bruce Springsteen to everyone in my office I'll bet the 80% would recognize him, and everyone would know who he was when I told them his name. If I showed a picture of Joshua Bell I'd bet that no one would recognize him, and I'd further bet that if I told them who he was no more than 1 or 2 would recognize the name.

EDIT: Show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people watching.

RUE

Thursday, May 17, 2007 8:14 PM

FredG,

You're the one who's claiming everyone acts just like the people in DC. So, show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people NOT watching..

"and probably get the hell away from them" Didn't you notice the Torontonians were smiling ??

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, May 17, 2007 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You're the one who's claiming everyone acts just like the people in DC. So, show me a video of Bell playing in a subway station in the middle of a large European city at rush hour where there is a significant number of people NOT watching.

I never said anything of the sort. I freely recognize that other countries will react differently, though I suspect the difference would be a lot less then you think it in a given situation. YOU are the one who has stated repeatedly that there would be a difference so YOU are the one who has to back it up.

By that I mean show me the same experiment (I'll give you a pass on using the same musician and instrument) with the same songs performed in a similar setting by a musician of similar talent at rush hour in a major European city, and then another couple cities from different European countries, then maybe Canada, and toss in a Middle Eastern city or two and a Japanese city and a Chinese city or two. THEN you can say with authority that there is a significant difference in the way the different cultures work.

But there still isn't an answer to the question of why I should pay any attention in the first place.

Quote:
"and probably get the hell away from them" Didn't you notice the Torontonians were smiling ??

First off, And? So what? Second, I don't generally care for people dancing around me in a subway station, much less when they are dressed like fairies and clowns. If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:18 PM

I was just thinking more about this thread and I realized something, no one has talked about another reason for wanting to be at work on time. So here goes, when I was talking to my boss about my work hours, I told him that I would be here at 9:30*. Regardless of whether or not he would notice, I still told him that I'd be here. Isn't that alone a good enough reason to want to be there on time?

*Yes I get to work at 9:30, but I leave at 6:30 (usually), it's better than the alternative (else I wouldn't have asked), but it's not some unfair setup where I only have to work 6 hours while the rest of you are working 8.

RUE

Friday, May 18, 2007 1:06 AM

FredG

Quote:
I never said anything of the sort. (that everyone acts just like the people in DC).

The whole context of your argument is that with complex societies people just naturally become more time-constrained. Here is one example:
"Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 15:12
Thus people in cities are more apt to be willing to bow to the demands of society."
So yes, you are under an onus to back up your very general claims.

Quote:
If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.

Well, it was the people immediately in front of the group, some of whom turned around to look and turned back smiling. And, oh yes, the people in back of them, and if you'll look closely the people on either side ...

Aside from that, you keep saying that people are claiming you should always stop and listen. In fact you went so far in mischaracterizing the argument you said "I don't see it as a failing of society that we don't stop ... and watch entranced until it's done." Until it's done ??? Did anyone ever say that? And well, you also missed my point - which was that I found it odd that few people 'without breaking stride' turned around to look.

And in general, comparing tapes of Canadians and Americans in public places, Americans have defensive body language.

FREDGIBLET

Friday, May 18, 2007 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
I never said anything of the sort. (that everyone acts just like the people in DC).
The whole context of your argument is that with complex societies people just naturally become more time-constrained. Here is one example:
"Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 15:12
Thus people in cities are more apt to be willing to bow to the demands of society."
So yes, you are under an onus to back up your very general claims.

No. I was talking to Fremd about social order at the time. People in cities are less individualistic and independent and more likely to bow to social pressure then people outside of cities, with exceptions like every generalization. This only has a little to do with ignoring or not ignoring street musicians. I said NOTHING about whether or not people in other countries would behave differently, though the divide between city dwellers and non-city dwellers will probably still hold true regardless of country.

YOU are the one who is insisting that the results of the experiment would be different in different countries, something which I have never denied. But it is YOUR job to back up the claim if you want it to be agreed with as factual instead theoretical.

But here's the fun part, even if you prove that there is a difference, you still haven't given a concrete reason why anyone SHOULD stop and listen to a street musician, meaning that you still can't draw a conclusion about which culture is BETTER based off of the experiment.

Quote:
Quote:
If I was watching from a distance I might smile too, but not if I'm in the middle of it.
Well, it was the people immediately in front of the group, some of whom turned around to look and turned back smiling. And, oh yes, the people in back of them, and if you'll look closely the people on either side ...

And? So what? So I don't really like the idea of strange, oddly dressed people dancing around me, does that mean there's something wrong with me? Would you mind if I grabbed a bunch of friends and ambushed you outside your job wearing an assortment of loincloths and clown suits and danced around you for a bit? So I'm not that amused by people capering about around a subway station, does that mean there's something wrong with me?

Quote:
Aside from that, you keep saying that people are claiming you should always stop and listen.

If not always then when? Should they have paid attention just this time? Why?

Quote:
In fact you went so far in mischaracterizing the argument you said "I don't see it as a failing of society that we don't stop ... and watch entranced until it's done." Until it's done ??? Did anyone ever say that?

Then how long should we all listen to meet your expectations of a good society? 2 minutes? 4 minutes?

Quote:
And well, you also missed my point - which was that I found it odd that few people 'without breaking stride' turned around to look.

I was actually thinking about this after I watched some of the video. I think the conclusions they come to are interesting, I'm sure that the original video is higher-res, but I still think the reasoning is flawed. I for one may be dumber than the average mugger, but I AM capable of moving my eyes without turning my head and I see no reason to believe that many if not most of the people walking through that area couldn't have flicked their eyes over without breaking stride and without being noticed by the camera.

Quote:
And in general, comparing tapes of Canadians and Americans in public places, Americans have defensive body language.

Good for them...what's your point?

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