WAR OF THE BAT-FANS!

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, May 20, 2007 05:52
VIEWED: 7717
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CAUSAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Curious Causal, have you seen the Richard Donner Cut of Superman 2? (You have to skip the recycled turn-time-back ending they were forced to use, though, and it makes for a better film that way anyway)
It would have been the best superhero film in history had Donner been able to finish it his way back in '80, as it is, it's an intriguing look at what might have been.

No, but it's on my wishlist now, on the force of your recommendation.

But can you explain what you meant when you said, "have to skip the recycled turn-time-back ending they were forced to use, though, and it makes for a better film that way anyway"? Total confusion, here.

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CAUSAL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by HeWhoKicksAlot:
They definitely down-played Bruce/Batman's intelligence in Batman Begins.

In Dark Knight he will no doubt be the seasoned detective we all expect to see.

Didn't know anything about Dark Knight. But here's the real hope for me, what would really salvage the Batman movies for me. Three things:

1) Detective work. As we've been saying, Batman is supposed to be the world's greatest detective. But in the movies detective work is incidental to his real job, which seems to be kicking bad guy ass. Sure, Batman can fight, but his real genius is in the detective work.

2) An emotional arc for Batman/Bruce Wayne. That's the great thing about the comics--Bruce/Batman is this tortured creature, so bent on exacting justice that he loses himself. But he can't allow that, because if he does, he'll lose his connection to his parents, which is his real motivation. So there's this extremely complex interplay between the Batman persona and the Bruce persona. The films have used romantic relationships to display that tension, but that's just cheap and tawdry, IMHO. Let's get some real emotional angst.

3) DON'T KILL THE BLOODY JOKER!! This is, by far, my biggest beef with the superhero movies. They almost always end with the main villain dying. But that's not the way it works in the comic. Batman doesn't kill people--are even allow them to die, if he can help it. Because he's not out for vengeance, but justice, and that means catching the baddie and handing him over to the authorities. Plus, bonus: the baddie can come back later. By the time they got to Batman and Robin, they were using third-string villains. If they hadn't killed off the Joker, they could have used him again.

Long story short: I'll go see Dark Knight, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

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CHRISISALL

Thursday, May 17, 2007 1:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

But can you explain what you meant when you said, "have to skip the recycled turn-time-back ending they were forced to use, though, and it makes for a better film that way anyway"? Total confusion, here.

When they came down to the wire on completing Superman, they realized that the completion of Superman 2 would not be a six month turnaround as planned. They felt the film (the first one) needed punch at the end, as the sequel would not be out for a year or more, so they re-shot some stuff, and had Lois die, and Superman turn back time a few minutes to bring her back.
The end of Superman 2 had Supes turn back time to make Lois forget, and reverse the damage done by the super-villains- this was to be re-written and changed to a more suitable ending by Donner and Tom Mankiwitz (sp?), but they were fired after completing the first, so the re-construction of Donner's version of Superman 2 had to go with the ending as originally intended, without any re-write- hence the 'turn time back yet again' ending. But in the flow of the film, if you just skip the two chapters that have that bogus but necessary time turn-back scene (As soon as you see Perry White in his bathroom about to brush his teeth, just press the next chapter button twice real fast), it plays like Superman and Lois will just have to deal with their problems like adults, with her knowing that Clark is Superman, she even tells him that she'll never divulge his secret, so it makes perfect sense.
I always hated that 'kiss of forgetfulness' crap, as well as the beams from fingers, and ridiculous 'fight' at the fortress in the end- thankfully, those and other 'yuck-yuck' scenes have been eliminated...only a dumb joke about finding a toilet in the fortress by Miss Teschmacher remains.
All in all, a real step up from the more somewhat more finished, but WAAAY stupider Lester version of Supe 2.

Couch critic Chrisisall

STORYMARK

Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by HeWhoKicksAlot:
They definitely down-played Bruce/Batman's intelligence in Batman Begins.

In Dark Knight he will no doubt be the seasoned detective we all expect to see.

I have faith Chrisisall

Bale has hinted that there would be a stronger detective element.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

But can you explain what you meant when you said, "have to skip the recycled turn-time-back ending they were forced to use, though, and it makes for a better film that way anyway"? Total confusion, here.

When they came down to the wire on completing Superman, they realized that the completion of Superman 2 would not be a six month turnaround as planned. They felt the film (the first one) needed punch at the end, as the sequel would not be out for a year or more, so they re-shot some stuff, and had Lois die, and Superman turn back time a few minutes to bring her back.
The end of Superman 2 had Supes turn back time to make Lois forget, and reverse the damage done by the super-villains- this was to be re-written and changed to a more suitable ending by Donner and Tom Mankiwitz (sp?), but they were fired after completing the first, so the re-construction of Donner's version of Superman 2 had to go with the ending as originally intended, without any re-write- hence the 'turn time back yet again' ending. But in the flow of the film, if you just skip the two chapters that have that bogus but necessary time turn-back scene (As soon as you see Perry White in his bathroom about to brush his teeth, just press the next chapter button twice real fast), it plays like Superman and Lois will just have to deal with their problems like adults, with her knowing that Clark is Superman, she even tells him that she'll never divulge his secret, so it makes perfect sense.
I always hated that 'kiss of forgetfulness' crap, as well as the beams from fingers, and ridiculous 'fight' at the fortress in the end- thankfully, those and other 'yuck-yuck' scenes have been eliminated...only a dumb joke about finding a toilet in the fortress by Miss Teschmacher remains.
All in all, a real step up from the more somewhat more finished, but WAAAY stupider Lester version of Supe 2.

Couch critic Chrisisall

I've also got a fan-made "Hybrid Cut" of the 2 versions of Superman 2. I uses all the good stuff from the Donner Cut (Brando and such), but keeps some of the Lester-directed scenes that were left out of the Donner Cut (to it's detriment, I feel). Some big stuff, like the "amnesia kiss ending", and some small, like the running oragnge juice gag, which didn't really pay-off in the Donner Cut.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:28 PM

I like the movies well enough, although I didn't find any of them other than 'Batman Begins' all that good. It's been made worse since I started reading some Batman trades. Namely 'The Long Halloween' and 'Dark Victory'. Now those are good.

I did love the TV show when I was a kid. Especially the "sounds" on screen. Pow! Whap! Zonk! Hee hee hee!

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13

Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:52 AM

Batman and Robin was a blast, and NOT just because I was about eight or nine when I saw it! Although we all know that Clooney's greatest is Dusk 'Till Dawn, another fantastic film dripping with cheese. (at least in the second half.)

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