What our world has become.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Monday, June 29, 2026 21:34
VIEWED: 23018
PAGE 13 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Here's the thing though, do we have to stop at EVERY SINGLE STREET MUSICIAN? Most of the people going by him lack the knowledge of classical music to recognize the skill he has so for most of the people there he's just another pretty good street musician.
If I'm 1 minute late I'm not going to get fired, but I don't pass by one street musician every day, I pass by dozens. If I devote a minute and a half to each one of them the time adds up quickly and I WILL get fired if I show up a half-hour late every day.
So who decides who I should stop and listen to? You? Should I get your phone number and call you every time I go by a street musician to ask if I should stop and listen? No. I make the decisions about which ones I should stop for, and I (probably) would not have stopped for him.
The problem is that people like you seem to think that there is some pressing reason why we SHOULD stop for every decent street musician and listen for a while. If you can explain why I should structure my life around street musicians please do as I'd love to hear your arguments.
Hey Fred,
did you read the final paragraph of my post? The one that goes like this:
Quote:"Whether or not people would stop, doesn't interest me." Not once did I say that anyone should have stopped to listen to the violinist. Not once. Nor did I imply it.
And just to be clear: were I there, I may or may not have stopped to listen based upon my own judgement in the moment. I would blame no one but myself if I missed out on some great music. Whether or not people would stop, doesn't interest me. Why we think we do the things we do, the amount of personal responsibility we, each of us, take for "what our world has become" is of the utmost importance to us all.
My beef was with the absurd 5th grade excuses people were making for not stopping (and more importantly, though you didn't have anything to say about it, the contempuous language people were using to describe street musicians; the implications of such language in terms of free will and the search for beauty). My concern is with people being able to take personal responsibility for their actions and their choices without scapegoating "societal pressure" or "my boss" or "capitalism," etc.
There seems to be an awful lot of guilt and embarrassment (hence the many silly excuses made in this thread) on the part of folks who wouldn't have stopped (guilt and embarrassment, therefore, over a hypothetical--people, isn't life too short to be making up situations to be embarrassed about?).
It bothers me, actually, that adults like yourself would lend credence to an argument that you should have stopped to listen to a street musician during rush hour in the subway.
It drives me (rhetorically) crazy that you read a post in which I extol free will and personal responsibility and you think I'd want to dictate your actions in any goddamn way!
Here's my first and only law then, as Dictator of the World:
LIVE YOU'RE OWN LIFE AND DON'T MAKE EXCUSES! VIOLATORS WILL BE MISERABLE!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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No one says the ability to break away from context isn't there, but even that requires a certain context: the will to do so.
Context-free categories are a result of something akin to fuzzy logic which happens in brains* whether it's willed or not. (* birds, mammals, probably reptiles and possibly others)
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It's true that society creates people and people create society. People create society by the stories they tell themselves. If you want a different society you need to tell yourself different stories.
HKC - I remember when I was young and I read about the murder of 'Kitty' Genovese. I vowed to try to never be like those 38 witnesses who watched and did nothing, like the Germans who just followed orders at the death camps, like the subjects who turned up the 'electricity' until they 'killed' the trainee. I hoped, and hope, never to go along just because everyone else was doing it, or it was expected, or it's what I always did. I have to say it's tough, trying to come to a personal non-habituated response.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
"Whether or not people would stop, doesn't interest me." Not once did I say that anyone should have stopped to listen to the violinist. Not once. Nor did I imply it.
Sorry then. The problem is that you are seeming to jump in on the side of the people who do insist that we should have stopped and listened.
Quote:
My beef was with the absurd 5th grade excuses people were making for not stopping...My concern is with people being able to take personal responsibility for their actions and their choices without scapegoating "societal pressure" or "my boss" or "capitalism," etc.
I really don't see what you are trying to say here, you are saying that because I don't want to be late for work because of the potential consequences that I'm trying to scapegoat the system? That's a bit of a stretch, it seems like you have a preconceived notion of what the answer SHOULD be and since we aren't giving you the answer you expect that there's something wrong with us. I don't see how you can see not wanting to get fired as scapegoating the system.
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(and more importantly, though you didn't have anything to say about it, the contempuous language people were using to describe street musicians; the implications of such language in terms of free will and the search for beauty)
You don't need to preach to me about this, my opinion is that they are sometimes annoying (see my previous post about the stoners drumming outside my office building), but that there is nothing inherently wrong about what they do.
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There seems to be an awful lot of guilt and embarrassment (hence the many silly excuses made in this thread) on the part of folks who wouldn't have stopped
I don't see where you are getting either of these, I for one don't see any reason at all to be guilty or embarrassed about saying that I probably wouldn't have stopped, and I don't think anyone else here does either.
Quote:
It bothers me, actually, that adults like yourself would lend credence to an argument that you should have stopped to listen to a street musician during rush hour in the subway.
I don't, which is why it's annoying when it seems that argument is made.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Or consider this unfortunate victim of art:
Why so huffy? Can you stay calm, please? And if you have something to say to me, why not say it to me instead of trumping me around as a bad example? Rude, much?
Quote:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
With a musician on the street, their art is pushed onto you, whether you're in a frame of mind to receive it or not. It's like a child demanding your attention - and then asking for your money. *Snap* Appreciate on demand - or you have the wrong priorities? Some enjoy that, but some don't. Many don't.
I gotta wonder what bizarre clauterphobic distopia these folks live in that they feel street music is "pushed onto" them. Good god, what about the birds that sing and the sunsets every last night of the week? Thrust upon us without our say-so! Oh, the misery!
Let me reply while trying to ignore your really aggressive language. (I'm judging you for that, btw.)
I was talking about it in terms of attention - the attention it is implied SHOULD be paid to them, in terms of stopping or paying them money. Many people didn't do either for Bell, and people somehow find that noteworthy. Why? Because apparently people SHOULD have stopped.
I disagree. It's a choice.
It's not the music that bothers me, it's the hypocrisy of saying that it's a choice and then finding it oh so troublesome that people chose not to stop.
You say that we are defensive and use "excuses" for our "behavior" but you don't admit to the judgment inherent in your own position. It may not be a moral one, but it's still a judgment. "Droid" has been implied.
I like most street musicians, but it's still a bid for one's attention, not something sought out. Maybe "pushed" was a strong word to use, but it's applicable.
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And this insinuation that street musicians demand money! What, indeed, has our world become when people perceive the passive invitation of a violin case open at the feet of a musician as a demand thrust upon them? It's as if the simple presence of the artist offends these people! Oh, wait...
Oh, right. The presence of the artist offends me. That must be it.
I did not say that "demand money". I said they demand attention - or rather, the people who keep being astounded that people didn't stop for Bell are demanding that we pay them attention.
I said they ask for money.
Some street musicians are so painfully bad and play with so little motivation that - indeed - the only reason they can be doing this is the coin-littered hat at their feet.
No, not all of them ask money. I may have over-generalized, because I was exaggerating to make my point about attention. But some do ask for money.
You really took this quite personally, geez. All of this could have been said with a lot less arrogant snippiness.
Quote:Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Our society works because it is based on precision. People being in certain places, doing certain things at very certain times. In between that we're supposed to fit our lives, families and sleep.
Does it rob us of certain freedoms and is that sad? Yes. But with as many people as we are, inparticular concentrated in one place in big cities, it's probably the only way to keep things running smoothly.
All this sacrifice in the name of that holy grail of modern control-freak culture: "running smoothly." What in this world that matters, seriously now, runs smoothly?
I said society, not culture.
It may not matter to you, but I consider emergency rooms to be a better place in the world when nurses and doctors are on time to take over shifts for their coworkers. I consider any workplace better for the courtesy we pay each other by being on time and doing our job. (Not, not the company or my boss - my coworkers, people I spend 8 hours a day with. People who are nearly friends.)
I like when repair people come when they said they would,
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"Yet people keep calling it "sad" and ask what has become of the world."
But it's a valid question.
Why is it people haven't learned about classical music? Why is it enough people haven't learned to play any instrument so that they can appreciate the art of another's playing? Why is it people can be so preoccupied standing in line to buy a lottery ticket (and doing nothing, not even rushing to work) they don't even remember a violinist nearby? Why is it an (apparent) lack of money is akin to being a leper, such that people not only didn't stop for a second or two, they didn't even turn and look in acknowledgment.
The question wasn't - what's wrong with YOU? It's, rephrased - is this the society you want to live in?
Is it ?
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I wonder how many people lamented the lost art of cave painting during the Renaissance?
Posting to stir stuff up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But it's a valid question.
I'll answer these for myself YMMV
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Why is it people haven't learned about classical music?
Couple reasons, first to appreciate classical music you can't take it in 4 minute cuts like you can with most other styles, I am not a big enough music buff to dedicate a half-hour to 2 hours to what is essentially one extremely long song. This is why I'm not big on the idea of concept albums for instance. Second, a lot of the people who are into classical music come across as pretentious asses so the culture of classical music isn't always welcoming IMO.
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Why is it enough people haven't learned to play any instrument so that they can appreciate the art of another's playing?
I did, I'm sure that the classical musicians here will probably scoff, but I took Bass lessons for a while and I recognize the amount of work it takes to get good at even a relatively simple instrument as the Bass (I was pretty good at playing but I sucked at composing). But that in no way means that I should automatically pay complete attention to everyone who plays well. Consider, Kerry King is an excellent guitar player, but if you put a recording of him playing on in a room full of classical music snobs they'd probably freak out and kill the CD player, why? because they don't like it, not because it isn't technically skilled.
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Why is it people can be so preoccupied standing in line to buy a lottery ticket (and doing nothing, not even rushing to work) they don't even remember a violinist nearby?
The only real answer I can give here is the one that's come up repeatedly, after spending enough time having street musicians on all sides you eventually learn to tune them out completely. Is it right? maybe not, but just like everything else in life, when you are exposed repeatedly to something you get inured to it. Perhaps if music was rare and difficult to obtain things would be different, but in our world you can listen to music 24\7 with ease.
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Why is it an (apparent) lack of money is akin to being a leper, such that people not only didn't stop for a second or two, they didn't even turn and look in acknowledgment.
I don't think that this was actually the issue, there's a couple of people on this thread who've mentioned feeling like this but I think most people don't think street musician=homeless vagrant, I know I don't see it that way.
In a broader sense I think that we as a society have been conditioned to believe that if someone is down on their luck that they probably had something to do with it, be it drugs, gambling, bad business decisions etc. So we as a society connect homelessness with personal weakness which isn't usually valid (many of the homeless people are ex-soldiers who couldn't re-adjust to civilian life ala Rambo in First Blood (not the blood and guts sequels)).
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The question wasn't - what's wrong with YOU?
Unfortunately that's the way it comes across
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It's, rephrased - is this the society you want to live in?
Meh, there are a lot of changes that I would like to make and I suspect that there are other societies that match the way I think things should be better, but all in all it not bad enough for me to leave...yet.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Yet people keep calling it "sad" and ask what has become of the world."
But it's a valid question.
You know, just to say this up front, I do not say that our world right now is perfect at is it.
I just really vehemently disagree that the Bell experiment is in any way a valid indicator for that. At all.
The experiment has more to do with human nature than it does with the flaws of society.
I have a long list of things I would like to change about the world, but I doubt that in my perfect utopia people would have stopped for Bell in a noticably higher number.
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Why is it people haven't learned about classical music? Why is it enough people haven't learned to play an instrument so that they can appreciate the art of another's playing?
If I read this right, people should all be taught to play an instrument and learn enough about classical music in order to arrive at the preferred level to recognize the distinguishing amount of Bell's talent on the particular instrument violin in the first place.
Since I don't know how high that level is, how easily attainable, I honestly can't say if that's a reasonable approach or a haughty one. I know that not everyone is musically inclined, even though that number is smaller than the number of people who tend to not find out.
Neutrally speaking, I'm not against giving children greater access to creating music. It's on my list.
You could teach everyone the practical and theoretical bits necessary to recognize art in all its forms (because, why favor one over the other), and whenever someone decided to try the Bell experiment, crowds would gather and they would recognize the true talent among them. If they want.
I'm not against that, at all.
I just don't think that this current lack of specialized knowledge is hurting people's ability to enjoy life very much right now. They might enjoy music on a more "shallow" level, but they do enjoy it. Dance to it. Listen to it. Write teen-angsty Mary-Sue song fic to it.
And if they wanted, they could learn more already.
Can it be better? Yes. Is the status quo horrible and worth weeping over because people are sad victims? No. Not to me, anyway.
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Why is it people can be so preoccupied standing in line to buy a lottery ticket (and doing nothing, not even rushing to work) they don't even remember a violinist nearby?
Maybe they were preoccupied writing Gilmore Girls fanfiction in their heads. Maybe they were imagining how to break up with their boyfriend. Maybe they were contemplating the Iraq situation. Maybe they were imagining biting into the snickers bar in their pocket.
I think it is very easy to be preoccupied. I don't see how there is anything wrong with that. The more things we are surrounded by, the less we can focus on, and in a city, being preoccupied strikes me as a self-defense against overstimulation, which would be stressful.
To me, it seems entirely natural. Not always to our advantage, but not inherently harmful, either.
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The question wasn't - what's wrong with YOU? It's, rephrased - is this the society you want to live in?
Is it ?
If the only thing wrong with society was what the Bell experiment touched upon? Yes.
I care about different things, such as combining working and parenthood in a harmonious way, moving away from punishing criminals toward turning them into something that's not a threat upon release, the question of how screwed up our relationship with love and sex and its combination can be, how much we judge and make each other miserable...
I'm not saying that human artistic expression and reception and questioning our immediate environment isn't necessary and important. But it's much lower on my list of what is wrong about the world I live in.
I don't think art is as endangered as Bell's experiment makes it seem. Art should reach its audience on account of itself, and if Bell's music couldn't, maybe it's not the right mediu
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Ask the larger questions. Mine were only a starting point. Do we WANT people to appreciate classical music? AFAIK maybe not. Do we WANT people to be so consumed with their jobs and their things that they don't appreciate pleasant moments? Do we WANT a society that can't place a value on things unless there's a dollar sign on it? And so on.
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