Firefly Episode Discussions

What I'm expecting from Firefly

POSTED BY: Ringwraith
UPDATED: Monday, October 7, 2002 18:47
VIEWED: 8236
PAGE 2 of 3

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shuggie:
My biggest problem with aliens in SF is that they are rarely (I mean very rarely) done well. They're either basically just funny shaped humans (i.e. they think and talk exactly like we do) or they have some artificial broad-brush distinction to make them different (e.g. Vulcans being utterly logical) which usually gets abandoned the first time someone thinks it'll make an interesting storyline (Spock cries! Look an unemotional alien acting emotionally!).

I absolutely, totally agree. The worst part is that this kind of storytelling employs the kind of group stereotyping that we just don't need to perpetuate.

Ever read any of Larry Niven's "Known Space" stories? He used to write about seriously alien aliens -- cowardly herbivores with two heads and three legs, vaguely cat-like creatures with impulse control issues, beings with radar sets instead of eyes, that are known for their sculptures. Probably not as alien as real aliens would be, assuming they actually exist. But way beyond what most SF writers have done, to say nothing about the crude aliens we see on TV.

I used to look forward to the day when CGI would get good enough to break out of the human-in-a-mask box. Then I met Jar Jar Binks, and realized that CGI wasn't the problem.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 4:52 PM

Quote:
Joss talked about Mal being from the vietnamese side of things when it comes to the alliance(us). SO he will see the good of the alliance as the bad from his perspective but the alliance also is bad as well in some things like our own country.

Whedon's parallels between the Alliance and America in it's Imperial mode are very apt, and I'm looking forward to seeing how he plays them out.

One nitpick: there doesn't seem to be a lot of anti-Americanism in Vietnam. You'd think there would be, but Americans who travel there report exactly the opposite. Even guys who fought in the war report being treated more like long-lost cousins than former enemies. Even when they meet the guerillas and soldiers they fought against. Especially then. Quite mind-boggling.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

SHUGGIE

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Ever read any of Larry Niven's "Known Space" stories?

Yep. Read a lot of them when I was younger.

Quote:
He used to write about seriously alien aliens -- cowardly herbivores with two heads and three legs,

Puppeteers. IIRC they had 3 genders including a non-sentient one. But they didn't like to talk about that.

Quote:
vaguely cat-like creatures with impulse control issues,

Kzin. I must admit I found these a lot less alien - they are very like Klingons - very strict codes of honour, ritualized aggressive behaviour. They were however quite well drawn I thought more so than Klingons imho.

Actually Niven cleverly populates Known Space with a variety of lifeforms with varying degrees of human-likeness. He makes the point that there are species that just don't interact because their thinking, frames of reference are so different.

Quote:
beings with radar sets instead of eyes, that are known for their sculptures.

Was that the Trinocs? Slavers? I forget.

Or how about Pak? Our 'ancestors'?

Quote:
Probably not as alien as real aliens would be, assuming they actually exist. But way beyond what most SF writers have done, to say nothing about the crude aliens we see on TV.

True. When you think how complex even the simplist lifeforms are, how many variables there are, you have to think that there are billions of possibilities. Even if life evolved elsewhere on a very similar planet the probability is that it would look really different.

Shug

WHATNOW

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ringwraith:
To be quite honest I haven't read a whole lot about the show in regards to reviews of episodes and such. I'm trying to be as spoiler-free as possible (as is my wife) but as the day draws near it's hard to not want to read anything. Still, I think I'm doing a pretty good job.

So what am I expecting from Firefly?

I'm expecting great writing. This is a given, I think. It's a Whedon series and once again he's surrounded himself with great scribes. I've come to expect the unexpected from him and his crew and I think that it won't be any different this time around. I mean, this show won't be having aliens (thank God!) or ray-guns (thank God again!) so right off the bat you're knocking most sci-fi conventions on their head.

I'm expecting a story-arc. Okay, that actually is in the "writing" category but I am expecting some sort of arc, if not this season then in the next--providing there is one. If there is an arc this year I won't expect it to be big but perhaps an underlying arc, like season 1 Babylon 5, Millennium or Buffy. Heck, even Angel's first season had one.

I'm expecting strong performances from the actors. His shows have good acting (and stand-outs like James Marsters--sp?) and I hope this one is no different.

I'm expecting a cinematic look to the show along the lines of Angel. Not widescreen, though that would be nice, I mean the overall look and feel. I don't want it to look like Star Trek (though I like Trek). A Farscape kinda look would be nice.

I'm also expecting people to say, "Well, this show is OKAY but it's a rip-off of fill-in-the-blank." Star Trek, Andromeda, Babylon 5, Farscape, Doctor Who, Battlestar Gallactica, Lost in Space, Manimal. It's a TV show, just relax. If you don't like it, don't watch it.

What I'm not expecting but looking forward to...

The fact that there will be no sound in the space scenes! Everyone loves the roar of the Millennium Falcon, Enterprise hitting warp speed or the sound of a jump gate opening in Babylon 5 but having no sound at all...that is so 2001: A Space Odyssey--in a good way. Some sci-fi purists won't like it but at least it's being realistic.

I'm looking forward to the whole "western" look. Six-shooters, the clothes (gotta love those gun belts--will someone have a bandolier?) and horses. I know some will hate this concept but I for one think this, more than anything, will make Firefly stand out amongst the other sci-fi shows. It's so out-there that it will work. Besides, what's a better sound than someone cocking a pistol?

I'm looking forward to the cool visual effects I've heard so much about and have only seen fleetingly on commercials.

More than anything, I'm looking forward to discussing this show with all of you this season and hopefully future seasons. Haken has started a great community here. My hat is off to him.

Sorry, it's not a cowboy hat.

************************************************
"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
************************************************

Do you mean to keep horses onboard the ship? How about bikes like in STAR WARS? I want more tech. A phase pistol when activated makes a sound as its power builds up-even better than the sound of a six-shooter cocking, and it has other possibilites available, such as stun setting and complete detonation. More tech means more options. Yes bandoliers updated of course. I don't care if Josh rips off any other show as long as he puts it to good use. What do you mean by writing-arc?

Whatnow

WHATNOW

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 8:01 PM

You should read what Carl Sagan had to say about possible alien lifeforms. It's a safe assumption they need oxygen if they have high tech. If you don't originate on a primarily oxygen world then you can't have fire and if no fire no high tech. You need stereoscopic vision to denote distance. So you won't have an eye on each side of your head like some whales. There are many anthropological reasons and many exo-biological reasons why things are such. In other words if there are to be aliens then they would be similiar to ourselves in many ways. Dolphins are intelligent but have no appendages and live in a water environment thus no high tech. I believe they do exist but we are much too isolated to interact. As late as the early 1700's many people inhabiting our own world were undiscovered on what was considered far away islands in the Pacific. So if you encounter an alien lifeform with fairly advanced tech then he most likely breaths oxygen, and has a roughly similar body structure as we do.

Whatnow

ZICSOFT

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whatnow:
I want more tech. A phase pistol when activated makes a sound as its power builds up-even better than the sound of a six-shooter cocking, and it has other possibilites available, such as stun setting and complete detonation. More tech means more options.

So you want a show with cool sound and visual effects? There are already a zillion shows and movies like that, and they all bore me to tears. The eye and ear candy make it to easy to get away with writing crap.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

RINGWRAITH

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 9:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whatnow:
Quote:
Do you mean to keep horses onboard the ship? How about bikes like in STAR WARS? I want more tech. A phase pistol when activated makes a sound as its power builds up-even better than the sound of a six-shooter cocking, and it has other possibilites available, such as stun setting and complete detonation. More tech means more options. Yes bandoliers updated of course. I don't care if Josh rips off any other show as long as he puts it to good use. What do you mean by writing-arc?

Whatnow

Zicsoft already spoke about a few of those issues, such as there already are sci-fi shows that have laser weapons that make noises and such.

Besides, the more tech the more something can go wrong. And how well built are these things? Do they break if you step on them or drop them? Is weather an issue? How about heat or water? EMP? The power in the unit runs out? What if it breaks, how do you fix it if you don't have the tools or the parts?

As for "writing-arc" I mean a story that takes place over 5 or more (is there a minimum limit?) episodes, like the Glory storyline from Buffy season 5 or the Shadow War which is mid season 2 to mid season 4 of Babylon 5. If Firefly lasts another season I bet Joss will "open his show up" ala Buffy or Angel.

And I doubt they'd keep horses on board Serenity although some other ships might.

************************************************
"How will this end?"
"In fire."
--Babylon 5, 'The Coming of Shadows'
************************************************

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LIVINGIMPAIRED

Wednesday, October 2, 2002 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ringwraith:
As for "writing-arc" I mean a story that takes place over 5 or more (is there a minimum limit?) episodes, like the Glory storyline from Buffy season 5 or the Shadow War which is mid season 2 to mid season 4 of Babylon 5. If Firefly lasts another season I bet Joss will "open his show up" ala Buffy or Angel.

If Firefly lasts, my money is on half a season before the show stops being episodic and starts being serialized (baring intervention from network exes that have no business in the writing arena). Buffy started to become serialized around the begining of S2 (S1 was only half a season) and Angel was serialized around halfway into S1. I'm guessing the trend's going to continute. Assuming he makes it even that long.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

ZICSOFT

Thursday, October 3, 2002 1:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LivingImpaired:

If Firefly lasts, my money is on half a season before the show stops being episodic and starts being serialized (baring intervention from network exes that have no business in the writing arena). Buffy started to become serialized around the begining of S2 (S1 was only half a season) and Angel was serialized around halfway into S1. I'm guessing the trend's going to continute. Assuming he makes it even that long.

Hmm, you and I seem to have very different pictures of S1 and S2. As I see it, the S1 arc was about the duel between The Slayer and The Master. This arc began with the very first ep, but didn't include every ep in the season. The biggest criticism I have of S1 is that Whedon created and disposed of The Master in a half-dozen or so episodes. This Big Bad was too interesting a character to come and go like that!

In S2, the arc (my opinion again) is about the sacrifices Buffy has to make because she's the Slayer. So the fact that the Big Bad doesn't even exist until Ep 13 ("Suprise") is kind of beside the point, because so many elements of the arc -- love, betrayal, sacrifice -- are established much earlier.

There's something of this in all subsequent Buffy seasons. The Big Bad doesn't show up until way into the season, but their story begins long before their actual appearance. Why is everybody in Sunnydale afraid of the Mayor? Why are commandos kidnapping vampires? Why does Buffy suddenly have a sister? It's a gimmick for building suspense -- a very effective gimmick.

Both Buffy S6 and Angel S1 are exceptions that prove the rule. BS6 had an arc that sputtered and flailed, started and stopped, so the dramatic momentum was lost. But it still established itself (or tried to) early in the season.

As for Angel: that series was originally supposed to be purely episodic. They didn't even start writing an arc until they decided the episodic approach wasn't working.

Now, if the big arc in Firefly S1 is about the crew fighting the mysterious folks who want River back, then it's already well underway. Right now, arc building is taking a back seat to telling episodic stories, but it does seem to be happening.

JOSS, WHERE'S MY CHECK???!!!

MILLERNATE

Thursday, October 3, 2002 3:12 AM

Quote:

So you want a show with cool sound and visual effects? There are already a zillion shows and movies like that, and they all bore me to tears. The eye and ear candy make it to easy to get away with writing crap.

How about a show that simply fits with human history. The entire history of man has been one of continual technological advantages. Where as in Firefly it appears, somehow, that the ability to travel space to a significant extent led people to 1800s style dress and technology. This simply wouldn't be the case.

Nathan
"It looks like a great adventure...That's what it is; that's what it feels like. When I saw the pilot, it was really engaging. It was exciting. It was unusual. It threw me off every now and then. I think people will be grabbed by it." - Ron Glass, on the pilot, during an interview with the Indianapolis Star