Children on Serenity - practicable?
POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Thursday, April 26, 2007 02:10
VIEWED: 11786
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originally posted by AgentRouka
Yes, but the question is not whether they are biologically capable or whether some of them might want to. The question is whether it's a responsible choice and practicable long-term without making real changes to their lifestyle.
Ahh, we are answering different questions.
The question I thought I was answering is would people in that situation be likely to have children not whether it is responsible.
We could get into a whole discussion on whether it is a responsible choice to have children at all even in our easy American world… But I have this horrible difficulty separating the characters from real people... and real people, in their situation--- young, healthy and becoming more and more sexually active (you go, Kaylee, girl ;) are likely to have children. This would make changes in their lifestyle but, judging from my experience (none with gangbangers but I have grown up in and live in Humboldt Co, CA -Pot capital of the US), not as much as you might expect.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Also, I don't think that it's usually the "drug dealers and gang bangers" who actually raise those kids. That'd be their girlfriends or wives, I suspect.
As a feminist and a observer of actual pot culture, I would have to say, “what makes you think women aren’t drug dealers?” And those women are mothers (some excellent mothers and extremely loving), wives, and girlfriends (pretty fine women all around in many cases!) They grow it. They sell it. And sometimes they get arrested and sometimes they get shot. I’m not saying that they are being “responsible” just human and since Zoe (and the rest) seem darn human to me I’m betting the ship would have pitterpatters sooner or later.
Oh, and as a homeschooling mama I had to set this misperception right:
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originally posted by AgentRouka
Those who actually DO go to college, I don't doubt it. I have a friend who was homeschooled much to her advantage. But I'm fairly certain that there are those whose homeschooling works to their disadvantage who end up never seeing the inside of a college and who therefor don't figure into such statistics.
Of course not all homeschoolers go to college but according to a survey of 7500 adults who had been homeschooled, conducted by Dr. Brian Ray of the National Home Education Research Institute, Over 74% of home-educated adults ages 18–24 have taken college-level courses, compared to 46% of the general United States population.
Who would homeschool the mythical kid(s)? Anyone could (well, maybe not Jayne for readin’ and ‘ritin’! :0 ) It doesn’t take any huge amount of skill and lots of kids are homeschooled using the internet. With all those settlers heading out to the border planets (and taking their children), I’d bet there was a mighty large choice of homeschooling options on the cortex.
Yes, Serenity would not be a good place for having children but neither are the border planets and, frankly, nor is much of this beautiful but dangerous world you and I live in. Nonetheless, people constantly choose or accidently have children every day. And as the mother of 3 incredibly wonderful sons, THANK GOODNESS!
PS DESKTOPHIPPIE Right, Thanks for reminding me to keep up the faith. I despair occasionally.
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Originally posted by redhead:
The question I thought I was answering is would people in that situation be likely to have children not whether it is responsible.
Of course some people would be likely to do questionable things. That's not worth a discussion.
We're talking about the crew of Serenity, though. The show is interesting because it examines the fabric of complex choices, not because it celebrates gut-reactions.
I don't see a child being just... taken for granted without some major dramatic back and forth with regard to their lifestyle, and I think this would be the justified form of approaching the subject, rather than just going "People are raising kids in bad places all the time, let's try". Because that would take any and all impact out of possible bad consequences because they would have been easily predictable miles away.
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We could get into a whole discussion on whether it is a responsible choice to have children at all even in our easy American world…
It's a grey area, yes. Having children is always a selfish choice, but there are degrees of what is acceptable and degrees of what is not. There's a reason there are child social services in the world and I don't think a sweeping argument like "When is it ever the right time?" makes that go away.
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But I have this horrible difficulty separating the characters from real people... and real people, in their situation--- young, healthy and becoming more and more sexually active (you go, Kaylee, girl ;) are likely to have children.
Big distinction between sex and reproduction these days. Birth control. Having children is a choice 99% of the time, íf anything like responsibility is involved.
The question is whether they are likely to want children, and want them on Serenity. Both partners involved. Regarding canon pairings, the likelihood of that is very low.
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As a feminist and a observer of actual pot culture, I would have to say, “what makes you think women aren’t drug dealers?”
I apologize for saying "wives and girlfriends" instead of "not-as-criminal parent", because certainly women can be criminals, too.
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And those women are mothers (some excellent mothers and extremely loving), wives, and girlfriends (pretty fine women all around in many cases!) They grow it. They sell it. And sometimes they get arrested and sometimes they get shot. I’m not saying that they are being “responsible” just human and since Zoe (and the rest) seem darn human to me I’m betting the ship would have pitterpatters sooner or later.
And I think Mal would have said no to that and asked Zoe to engage her brain (see my further paragraph above).
And, well, genocide is also quite a "human" thing to do, considering it's done by humans to humans. So is cheating and murder and stealing and substance abuse and forcing one's opinion on others Alliance-style. Human doesn't mean anything.
The show is unlikely to show any of those things (aside from the occasional murder, how funny) without casting some value judgment, and in the context of the show "human" is not a justification for anything. Choices matter. Choices and consequences.
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Of course not all homeschoolers go to college but according to a survey of 7500 adults who had been homeschooled, conducted by Dr. Brian Ray of the National Home Education Research Institute, Over 74% of home-educated adults ages 18–24 have taken college-level courses, compared to 46% of the general United States population.
I just wanted to set right that I did NOT mean to imply that homeschooling is not a good option!
I did not state it well enough, but I know that LOTS of homeschooled students receive a much better education than some kids in public schools.
But there's also the fact that my friend was taking college-level courses just to round off her highschool education, not because she had heard it all before and was now going to college. Classes
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I’m not sure that as a fan I would want to view the results of a child on Serenity but I can’t picture the conversation in which (pre-BDM) Zoe asks Mal if she can get pregnant. (post-BDM the point is moot –(pause for whimper)). Zoe is extremely loyal and reluctant to do something that would displease him but it appears in War Stories she married Wash without Mal’s permission and decided to take whatever response he dished out. She’ld do the same with a pregnancy.
Sooo that leaves how Mal would respond once he found out she was pregnant. And I just don’t know. On the one hand, the idea of an 8 month pregnant Zoe in a fire fight seems likely to leave him a wee disconcerted. (He was pretty shook up when Petaline gives birth). But on the other hand, could he just say, “Gorramit, What the hell were you thinkin’ of? I’m gonna have to throw you and Wash off on Persephone. I’ll just get a new right hand man. How ‘bout you, Jayne, cause I never worry about you backstabbin’ me.” Hmm, Zoe’s loyalty and trustworthiness would be nearly impossible to replace.
So, I guess what it really would have come down to was Wash--just like Minear and Whedon wrote in Heart of Gold. Zoe’s ready but Wash isn’t and I agree that Zoe would be unlikely to choose getting pregnant without his being alright with that. (A part of me wonders though, any woman that would lie to her husband about whether she had talked to ‘the boss’ about a plan might well be willing to face “ritual suicide, lamby toes” in order to get what she wants. That doesn’t reflect well on her but she ain’t a saint.”)
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I really can't see Zoe doing anything devious to concieve a child. There's a huge difference between trying to spare hubby's feelings and throwing a humongous, life-altering change in his lap without his consent.
As for asking for Mal's permission... well, no she wouldn't. This is her life. But neither would she foist her lifestyle decisions on him. If she and Wash were going to try for a baby, she would probably tell Mal about it. As a courtesy, if nothing else, seeing as a pregnant woman or baby on board is going to severely affect his plans. There might follow some squabbling as to the feasability of raising a kid on Serenity. We have Wash's word that he thinks it's a bad idea. I'm fairly certain Mal would agree with him. In the end, I think Zoe and Wash would leave the ship.
And maybe Mal wouldn't have his right hand man anymore, and he'd have to watch his own back. He might not like it, but that's not a reason to endanger an infant.
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Keep in mind that the BDMs do not go out seeking bullet-ridden jobs, and that the camera doesn't show us the nice tame ones (wobbly-headed geisha dolls, etc.). From their point of view, the majority of their work is probably really uneventful, so that the times the danger actually comes on board with them are few. And consider, after all, that Kaylee isn't much more than a kid, and has really no ability to protect herself in a fight; but none of them seems to think that she shouldn't be on board.
I don't think that it's out of the question that Zoe would get pregnant (well, would have gotten...) and they would all decide to try things out for a while with a baby on board, on account of Zoe and Mal's friendship and how Serenity is her home as much as it is his. They'd probably do more ferrying with the shuttle and keep Serenity in orbit, or maybe keep someone out in orbit in the shuttle with the baby, whenever they thought it might be a little riskier. And maybe it wouldn't work out; but I think they'd still try.
Indigo S.
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Kaylee and River are the closest thing the ship has to children/innocents, it's true. And maybe Kaylee isn't much use in a gunfight, but she has her own set of skills which contribute to keeping the crew safe. And she's not nearly as helpless as a toddler would be. But what I think is the the fundamental difference between her and a potential kid is this: Kaylee accepted the work, knowing at least some of the risks. She can leave if it gets too hot for her. A mini-BDH would be in danger because that's where a parent decided to put them.
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It may not be every job that has them in mortal danger, but it does happen with a steady regularity of every couple of weeks/months. That's, I think, quite enough, whether they seek that danger or whether is just happens to find them that often.
And while I myself call Kaylee both childlike and childish at times, it's a bit much to equate her with a baby/toddler/pre-schooler or any actual child. She has a set character, she has choices and while she may freeze up in danger, she has the resourcefulness of her age. And when you tell her to shut up and solve a problem (in a loving way) she is capable of doing it even in the face of imminent death. Try doing that with a two-year-old. Or six-year-old.
Whether or not they tried things with a baby on board (probably not lasting long) would pretty largely have depended on Wash (be he in the picture). I can see Mal agreeing to try, if Zoe went about it in a diplomatic way and warned him ahead of time and such, but I think he'd want a back-up plan. Not a case of "Oh, it's not working out, let's now try to look for an alternative life".
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Well, of course, Kaylee isn't as helpless as an infant would be. I just meant that, from the perspective of the adults (Mal and Zoe), she is a kid; and they would have second thoughts about letting her stay on board, notwithstanding her skills, if they really thought it was all that dangerous. Granted, they may be just deluding themselves -- "Ok, that bounty hunter got on board _this_ time, but the chances of that happening again are one in... a very large number" -- but the same thinking would apply if they were to start having kids.
It just occurred to me that this is especially so if Serenity is pretty much the only home they're all willing to have. Zoe wouldn't even step foot on an Alliance planet, and the border planets seem pretty dangerous to me. There was that mining planet with the gas that rotted your bones from The Train Job, and the lawlessness plaguing the Our Mrs Reynolds planet and the Heart of Gold planet. The family would face environmental or criminal elements (or both) on every border planet that they could likely settle on. So any children they'd have would still be in danger, with the added danger of having a fixed location, should Zoe by chance make some enemies (which she would be almost certain to do, protecting the innocent from the powerful and the like).
Interesting topic, anyway :)
Indigo S.
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I was just reading Serenity:the official visual companion and saw where Whedon says "By the way there's a strong possibility that everybody would return for a sequel."
Whoa, that brings Wash and Zoe back into the post BDM world. Somehow I feel that, in that world, the Mal that could speak of love, would be open to a baby on the ship. Somehow if Wash was returned (only I can't come up with a non-cheesy way for him to return) it seems like everyone would be kinda cheering for Life and... babies.
But it doesn't seem much like BDM2 is likely....(lingering sad sigh).
To paraphrase Kaylee: Whedon's Firefly is just so lush. I want to take a bite out of it all over, you know?
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