Theory: Why Buffy and Angel had problems the past couple of years

POSTED BY: Forrestwolf
UPDATED: Thursday, March 11, 2004 16:48
VIEWED: 5554
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LENNIER

Thursday, March 11, 2004 1:42 AM

The "problem" that Buffy and Angel have had the last few years was called "art". Joss and crew were actually trying to accomplish and express something beyond just making entertainment-for-the-masses. They were trying and pushing harder and farther in the later seasons, and the only "problem" is that fans have not been very adaptable, and aren't willing to listen to an artist expressing himself (instead they feel they 'own' the shows and seem to think they understand them better than the creators do, and that if the shows aren't designed to please, or if they don't continue to follow some fairly narrow restictions, then there is some flaw).

I would say that the best seasons of Buffy are 4-6, and though 7 may have been a *little* bit behind, it's still fairly impressive (and moment-by-moment you can still see most of the quality there). As for Angel, seasons 4 and 5 have been so totally superior to anything they did before, that I'm shocked and disgusted that any fan, no matter how obtuse, could claim that something was going 'wrong'.

As for having a child, as the original poster pointed out, wouldn't this have effected FIREFLY as well??? oh my, yes, I believe it probably did!

Finally, joss has stated MANY times that his involvement in Buffy NEVER decreased, and in fact he was in some ways more involved in season 5 and 6 because he wasn't taking time to write and direct as many episodes himself (ie. he was watching over the little details more closely). And all the major things that fans have complained about turned out to be things that joss has specifically stated came directly from him (and on a number of cases he has implied that he is extremely proud of season six, particularly).
Also I would argue that his writing staff is just about as good as he is, so even if he did back off, it wouldn't have caused some catastrophe (it's true that on Angel joss has always been somewhat more 'hands off', but I don't think that suddenly changed at any point---it's always been that way).

If you have a personal dislike for certain seasons, or if they don't entertain you in the same way as the earlier seasons, that is perfectly fine, but don't turn around and trash the art just because you didn't enjoy it. Don't claim that it is some failure on the artist's part just because they're daring to do things differently, in a way that you don't happen to enjoy.
Even if you want to try to give a more objective argument for why you think certain seasons are 'bad', the worst thing you could try to do is claim that some personal event in the artist's life caused the quality of their work to decrease, especially when it's quite clear that the things you disliked in those season have more to do with concious artistic CHOICES (which you may feel free to disagree with), things that the artists were vehemently pursueing, rather than some sort of mishap or accident or failure of effort. If you look at each season on its own terms, it makes sense that it is the way that it is, it has a self-consistent unity that you almost never see on a television show (and never so many different KINDS of seasons!), regardless of whether you enjoyed it, or even whether you think the choices made were 'good' or 'bad' ones. (personally I judge 'goodness' by how coherent and strong a voice something has, and by how creatively and insightfully it expresses itself, and how unique it is and whether it is able to express itself on many levels and do so "in tune" with the nature of its medium. of course you may choose your own 'good' and 'bad', but that shouldn't change your understanding of when an artist is at the top of his game and doing things the way he wants to do them---which is what joss has been, all across the board, for the last 4 years).
The flaw here that i'm suggesting is that this thread only makes one whit of sense if joss's INTENTION was to specifically please the people who did not enjoy the last few seasons, and that some great event must have occured to cause him to slip up and NOT please those people (given the assumption that

MAUGWAI

Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:51 AM

Quote:
Sometimes I wish that joss would take a "JMS"-like attitude towards his fans, and take them to town for these kind of self-centric attitudes; but I guess he wouldn't be who he is without being so tolerant and willing to listen to fans dump on him.

So we should only discuss the things we like? I think Joss himself would disagree with that. He's nothing if not interested in interesting discussion. I don't think anybody's "dumping" on him. Everyone who has posted here is obviously a Joss Whedon fan. But the man and his writers are not gods, and some episodes are better than others. Forrestwolf was simply acknowledging that and wondering what motivates those differences.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

STEVE580

Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:16 PM

I've yet to see season four of Angel; but I can say that Seasons 5-7 of Buffy were my favorites; seasons 1-3 were my least favorite. All were excellent. As for Angel, each season was much better than the one that came before. Season five is by far my favorite.

So I gotta say, I'm a bit offended - well, maybe not offended, but I still think you're wrong to say that the shows *suffered* in their final years; to imply that things that Whedon did were mistakes. Because there are some of us who really love them.

Like....me!
-Steve

GORRAMREAVERS

Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:49 PM

I havent seen much of season 4 of Angel as well so I cant compare seasons (season 1 rocked) but as far as Buffy..seasons 4, 5 and half way thru 6 (when Buffy and Spike finally got together the show got too dark and depressing for me) were the best. Tabula Rossa was a really good epi in season 6. I also really liked season 2...the 'Angel' season.
There are no seasons I didnt like or thought were bad. Just some of them are more enjoyable to watch more than once.

FORRESTWOLF

Thursday, March 11, 2004 2:51 PM

Drat, how does the line from Serenity go? Zoe gets shot, Mal asks her if she's okay, she says the armor worked...something like that.

Thanks, Lennier! I wouldn't want to think I put on the bulletproof vest for nothing :)

And Maugwai, thanks for the kind words. I really didn't mean to criticize Joss as an artist - simply to stimulate some discussion on what I found an interesting insight into Joss's life (that he has a young son, like me!) and how we might have seen it impact his writing.

Perhaps I should have said, "Theory: The themes and stories covered in the last few years of Buffy and Angel were influenced by Joss's new parenthood."

That better?

HANS

Thursday, March 11, 2004 3:05 PM

I have to agree with those that disagree with the premise of this thread... :)

I think one's apprecation of Buffy and Angel's later years has to do at least partly with when you started watching the show.

I only got into Buffy towards the end, watching reruns on Space (starting around season 4) while at the same time new episodes of season 7 were being shown. I very much enjoyed those later seasons, including the much maligned season 6, though the final year was a little weak for me. Then, watching the early years of the show when they came around in reruns, I was a little disappointed. While there are some true classics in the high school years I found it much harder to get into. The reason I avoided buffy for years was the stereotype I had in my head - "silly show for kids about a wisecracking valley girl who fights vampires". While I am glad I gave the show a chance and realized that it's so much more than that, the first few seasons (perhaps because of the high school setting) do come closest to that campy/juvenile flavour I wanted to avoid.

Angel likewise. I only started to watch the show seriously near the end of the 4th season, caught up on some more of that season in reruns, then finally caught the early seasons when they were shown in syndication. The operatic, epic storylines of season 4 were what attracted me to the show, and I found the early years a little tame by comparison. Season one, in particular, feels a little weak. I hated most of the first half of this season, but my opinion has turned around 100% since the christmas break - the most recent episodes have been great (especially the recent threesome Smile Time/Hole in the World/Shells) and I'm very enthusiastic about the rest of this year.

Hans

GHOULMAN

Thursday, March 11, 2004 4:48 PM

theories are for scientists. Tell me what actually happened and that's a good thread.

BTW, why the frell are people saying the last few years of Buffy and Angel weren't Joss' best? The entire Buffy / Spike season was some of the best cult TV ever while the Jasmine arc in Angel was clever and chock full of goodness. Hey, Gina Torres is prolly the only actor in Hollywoodland who could have played a Goddess of Charisma - cause she is.

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